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WIAA and it's new rules affect on 3 sport athletes.
afan1
#1 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 9:40:02 AM(UTC)

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I found this to be a thought provoking column and a pretty good take.
"The name All-Northwest itself means something to readers of the Leader-Telegram." ?????????

It is the "ALL LEADER AREA" team, pure and simple.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

"It's déjà vu all over again" Yogi B.
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blade12
#2 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 9:41:55 AM(UTC)
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http://www.postcrescent....nd-three-sport-athletes

This is the Appleton Post Crescent's article.

Got any others???
travis12
#3 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 11:04:59 AM(UTC)

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This won't have any effect on three-sport athletes. Top athletes have always played out of season, they just did it with club teams or private training places. This change just means they can do it with their school teammates if they choose.
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afan1
#4 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 12:02:08 PM(UTC)

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travis wrote:
This won't have any effect on three-sport athletes. Top athletes have always played out of season, they just did it with club teams or private training places. This change just means they can do it with their school teammates if they choose.


Saying anything with that much certainty is a slippery slope. Many variables come into play.
"The name All-Northwest itself means something to readers of the Leader-Telegram." ?????????

It is the "ALL LEADER AREA" team, pure and simple.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

"It's déjà vu all over again" Yogi B.
blade12
#5 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 1:19:37 PM(UTC)
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travis wrote:
This won't have any effect on three-sport athletes. Top athletes have always played out of season, they just did it with club teams or private training places. This change just means they can do it with their school teammates if they choose.


I see this as a reaction to AAU basketball and it is not just a 3 sport athlete issue. It will become a choice and a factor for almost every HS athlete at some point.

As soon as 1 player chooses a fall or spring basketball league/team that is now easier to fill with HS teammates and friends, more local and cheaper than AAU, and coached by his/her HS Asst Coach over any other HS sport it has affected that school.








travis12
#6 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 2:47:34 PM(UTC)

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Blade wrote:
travis wrote:
This won't have any effect on three-sport athletes. Top athletes have always played out of season, they just did it with club teams or private training places. This change just means they can do it with their school teammates if they choose.


I see this as a reaction to AAU basketball and it is not just a 3 sport athlete issue. It will become a choice and a factor for almost every HS athlete at some point.

As soon as 1 player chooses a fall or spring basketball league/team that is now easier to fill with HS teammates and friends, more local and cheaper than AAU, and coached by his/her HS Asst Coach over any other HS sport it has affected that school.


High school coaches (head coach, assistant, volunteer, or whatever) cannot be involved in the out of season competition in any way.

Is it a reaction to AAU basketball? Sure, just like it's a reaction to club soccer, club softball, club volleyball, 7 on 7 football, private groups getting more influence on athletes, etc. Doesn't mean it is a bad reaction.

Bottomline, it was a rule that was difficult to define, difficult to enforce, and limited what athletes could do.

This isn't increasing the time they could spend out of season, it's just giving them different options in doing so. As I said, players could and did play out of season previously, and they did it a lot. But at least now they can do it with their school teams to actually improve the school teams, not just individuals.
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blade12
#7 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 3:14:06 PM(UTC)
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travis wrote:
Blade wrote:
travis wrote:
This won't have any effect on three-sport athletes. Top athletes have always played out of season, they just did it with club teams or private training places. This change just means they can do it with their school teammates if they choose.


I see this as a reaction to AAU basketball and it is not just a 3 sport athlete issue. It will become a choice and a factor for almost every HS athlete at some point.

As soon as 1 player chooses a fall or spring basketball league/team that is now easier to fill with HS teammates and friends, more local and cheaper than AAU, and coached by his/her HS Asst Coach over any other HS sport it has affected that school.


High school coaches (head coach, assistant, volunteer, or whatever) cannot be involved in the out of season competition in any way.

Is it a reaction to AAU basketball? Sure, just like it's a reaction to club soccer, club softball, club volleyball, 7 on 7 football, private groups getting more influence on athletes, etc. Doesn't mean it is a bad reaction.

Bottomline, it was a rule that was difficult to define, difficult to enforce, and limited what athletes could do.

This isn't increasing the time they could spend out of season, it's just giving them different options in doing so. As I said, players could and did play out of season previously, and they did it a lot. But at least now they can do it with their school teams to actually improve the school teams, not just individuals.


According to the Appleton PC article HS asst. coaches will be able to coach. "Member schools voted to approve the measure last Wednesday by a vote of 258-72. Those workouts and assemblies cannot involve head coaches, but assistant coaches and others associated with the particular program are fair game."

This change in the rules will give players different options and those options will be more appealing than current scenarios which will take away from other HS sports. If you don't love playing HS football or CC but you do it in order to fill time or get in shape for bball would you drop those sports in order to play for a newly formed HS fall bball team/league coached by your HS asst coach. You might, and doing detracts from those other HS sports. I can see that this change will especially affect many small schools and girls sports in particular.

afan1
#8 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 3:25:37 PM(UTC)

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According to the WIAA

Q: What changed?

A: A: In the rule, it will state: "Subsequently, students may voluntarily assemble at any time without school and/or school coach involvement." Students may now assemble out of season in any manner they choose during the school year and during the summer. However, their high school coaches and high schools many not be involved. The assembly must be open to any and all along with being voluntary.



Q: What has not changed?

A: The fundamental rule with coaching contact. Coaches may not have coaching contact with any athletes they will be coaching the following school season during restricted times (except their own children). Coaches includes head coaches, assistant coaches, volunteer coaches, and coaches who may be coaching the next year.

Q: With the new rule it states cannot involve head coaches, but can assistant coaches and others associated with the particular program work with the student-athletes?

A: No. The rule states "school coaches" which includes head coaches, assistant coaches, volunteer coaches, and coaches who may be coaching the next year.


Also, the athlete may not participate in the same sport during the school season with a nonschool team. A student becomes ineligible in a sport for the remainder of the season for competing in a nonschool game, meet, or contest in the same sport during the season of practice and competition established by the school.
"The name All-Northwest itself means something to readers of the Leader-Telegram." ?????????

It is the "ALL LEADER AREA" team, pure and simple.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

"It's déjà vu all over again" Yogi B.
blade12
#9 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 3:48:02 PM(UTC)
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a fan wrote:

Q: With the new rule it states cannot involve head coaches, but can assistant coaches and others associated with the particular program work with the student-athletes?

A: No. The rule states "school coaches" which includes head coaches, assistant coaches, volunteer coaches, and coaches who may be coaching the next year.


Also, the athlete may not participate in the same sport during the school season with a nonschool team. A student becomes ineligible in a sport for the remainder of the season for competing in a nonschool game, meet, or contest in the same sport during the season of practice and competition established by the school.


Continuing to prohibit offseason contact by asst coaches is different than what the Appleton PC article stated.

If that hasn't changed I wouldn't feel so strongly that this will change much in the minds or in th echoices of HS athletes.
coachw12
#10 Posted : Friday, May 04, 2012 3:48:58 PM(UTC)
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Minnesota and Illinois have summer contact days. Football has 25 contact days where they can put on pads beyond weightlifting. many football coaches do 4 day minicamps like the pros do.

Basketball in Illinois have contact time similar to football. the there sport athlete is primarily at the smaller and middle sized because of numbers.

I would like to see a 25 days of contact for football. Minnesota has unlimited summer contact.
Hueby
#11 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 5:27:34 AM(UTC)
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After witnessing first hand the off-season demands of a 3 sport athlete, and because of it watching the rapid decline of multi-sport athletes at our school, I've come to the conclusion we no longer really care. Our younger child should just take up fishing.
packers_old
#12 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:48:16 AM(UTC)

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HS basketball coaches have 5 days they can coach their team in the summer/offseason. So you can have practices or coach them in summer tournaments, but only 5 days of it. So there is some contact in comparison to the rule that allowed no contact.
foxvalleyguy
#13 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:04:49 PM(UTC)
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Does this mean that an assistant basketball coach can legally coach a skill session with his basketball players during the off season?
blade12
#14 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:05:38 PM(UTC)
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packers wrote:
HS basketball coaches have 5 days they can coach their team in the summer/offseason. So you can have practices or coach them in summer tournaments, but only 5 days of it. So there is some contact in comparison to the rule that allowed no contact.


The article in the Appleton Post Crescent gave me the impression that HS asst coaches were going to be able to coach in the off season full time. That does not appear to be accurate and if the rule is as before or only 5 days of contact in the offseason have been added this change won't affect anything. Why the APC decided to write about it, use the headline they did and take the point of view they did makes me scratch my head.
hshoops
#15 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:06:28 PM(UTC)
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Blade wrote:
a fan wrote:

Q: With the new rule it states cannot involve head coaches, but can assistant coaches and others associated with the particular program work with the student-athletes?

A: No. The rule states "school coaches" which includes head coaches, assistant coaches, volunteer coaches, and coaches who may be coaching the next year.


Also, the athlete may not participate in the same sport during the school season with a nonschool team. A student becomes ineligible in a sport for the remainder of the season for competing in a nonschool game, meet, or contest in the same sport during the season of practice and competition established by the school.


Continuing to prohibit offseason contact by asst coaches is different than what the Appleton PC article stated.

If that hasn't changed I wouldn't feel so strongly that this will change much in the minds or in th echoices of HS athletes.



APC is incorrect.....neither the head coach or the assistant coaches may coach outside of summer contact days.

To help clarify the decision - the driving force behind the rule was the inability of AD's to police what their athletes were doing on club volleyball, club soccer, AAU basketball, softball leagues, etc. In addition the consequences could include forfeiture from the state tournament.

With that type of liability placed on AD's and the difficulty in policing the athletes it became a no brainer in my opinion.
blade12
#16 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:19:30 PM(UTC)
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HSHoops wrote:
Blade wrote:
a fan wrote:

Q: With the new rule it states cannot involve head coaches, but can assistant coaches and others associated with the particular program work with the student-athletes?

A: No. The rule states "school coaches" which includes head coaches, assistant coaches, volunteer coaches, and coaches who may be coaching the next year.


Also, the athlete may not participate in the same sport during the school season with a nonschool team. A student becomes ineligible in a sport for the remainder of the season for competing in a nonschool game, meet, or contest in the same sport during the season of practice and competition established by the school.


Continuing to prohibit offseason contact by asst coaches is different than what the Appleton PC article stated.

If that hasn't changed I wouldn't feel so strongly that this will change much in the minds or in th echoices of HS athletes.



APC is incorrect.....neither the head coach or the assistant coaches may coach outside of summer contact days.

To help clarify the decision - the driving force behind the rule was the inability of AD's to police what their athletes were doing on club volleyball, club soccer, AAU basketball, softball leagues, etc. In addition the consequences could include forfeiture from the state tournament.

With that type of liability placed on AD's and the difficulty in policing the athletes it became a no brainer in my opinion.



How has the new rule made it easier for AD's to police?

If the penalty for violation is "too severe" then change the penalty.
hshoops
#17 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 5:01:29 PM(UTC)
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<How has the new rule made it easier for AD's to police?>

Because it's no longer in effect..... thought that was self explanatory.

The rule was outdated...no need to change the punishment - changing the rule was the right call.
blade12
#18 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 5:08:22 PM(UTC)
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HSHoops wrote:
<How has the new rule made it easier for AD's to police?>

Because it's no longer in effect..... thought that was self explanatory.

The rule was outdated...no need to change the punishment - changing the rule was the right call.


Please post a link to the complet rule if you have one. I guess I am lost as to what this covers and what it doesn't.

This is all I find

"Arguably the most significant change is to the Rules of Eligibility. It liberalizes the language addressing school teams assembling out-of-season during the school year. The new language permits student-athletes to assemble during the school year at any time outside the season for practice or competition as long as the school and/or school coach are not involved. The amendment received membership approval by a 258-72 vote. "
travis12
#19 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:28:27 PM(UTC)

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Blade wrote:
HSHoops wrote:
<How has the new rule made it easier for AD's to police?>

Because it's no longer in effect..... thought that was self explanatory.

The rule was outdated...no need to change the punishment - changing the rule was the right call.


Please post a link to the complet rule if you have one. I guess I am lost as to what this covers and what it doesn't.

This is all I find

"Arguably the most significant change is to the Rules of Eligibility. It liberalizes the language addressing school teams assembling out-of-season during the school year. The new language permits student-athletes to assemble during the school year at any time outside the season for practice or competition as long as the school and/or school coach are not involved. The amendment received membership approval by a 258-72 vote. "

The old rule said that teams "could not resemble" the high school team during out of season competition. So if a group of girls basketball players wanted to play in a tournament in the spring, they "couldn't resemble" the actual high school team. Problem was, what does that mean? Does that mean add one non-high school team player (someone who doesn't play at all, or maybe someone from a different school?)? Does it mean more than half? What does that mean?

At one point the WIAA tried to quantify it by saying that no more than 60% of the team and 60% of the players on the court/field at any point could be from the same school. But that placed the onus of compliance on kids, on untrained and perhaps rules-uneducated volunteers or parents; the schools had no way to be involved in it to make sure it wasn't happening or that it was being followed. After a year or two of that 60% rule, they just changed it back to "cannot resemble", which again left all kinds of ambiguity.

The other thing is that it was virtually unenforcable. Let's say a team DID have all high school players on it. How do you prove it? Is a witness statement enough? Then anyone could say they saw them doing it and it's the Wild West. Basically unless the WIAA had visual proof or someone admitted/self-reported it, they couldn't do anything about it. In my four years here and many years following high school sports previously, I don't recall a single example of a team/player being suspended or disciplined, because it was so hard to actually prove.

Again, the rule was hard to define, hard to prove, hard to enforce, and limited what athletes could freely do. Long overdue change in my opinion.

And to clarify, the rules are the same for head coaches and assistant coaches -- they cannot be involved in games/tourneys/practices in any way and they cannot be mandatory.

The five summer contact days that were referenced earlier have been in place for several years now for basketball, that isn't something new.
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tharick72
#20 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 8:07:20 PM(UTC)
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Good discussion going on here, which is what I wanted to have happen with the column. I admit that I'm thinking of worst-case scenario with the three-sport athlete and this relaxation of the assembly rules by the WIAA, but Travis brings up some great points on why this may not be that big of a deal.

I've had some interesting e-mail feedback from some several prominent coaches and I would say 8-of-10 are a little worried about this rule leading to at least some specialization. One track coach of a local D1 track powerhouse told me that "it's already happened and it's affected his program."

-Ricardo
travis12
#21 Posted : Saturday, May 05, 2012 9:05:56 PM(UTC)

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Ricardo Arguello wrote:
Good discussion going on here, which is what I wanted to have happen with the column. I admit that I'm thinking of worst-case scenario with the three-sport athlete and this relaxation of the assembly rules by the WIAA, but Travis brings up some great points on why this may not be that big of a deal.

I've had some interesting e-mail feedback from some several prominent coaches and I would say 8-of-10 are a little worried about this rule leading to at least some specialization. One track coach of a local D1 track powerhouse told me that "it's already happened and it's affected his program."

-Ricardo

They're claiming this rule change has already affected their program or that specialization in general is affecting their program?
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Hueby
#22 Posted : Sunday, May 06, 2012 5:40:00 AM(UTC)
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I wasn’t serious about seeing anyone quit sports to take up fishing. Sometimes frustrated?….yes.

What I think many would find helpful is a “cheat sheet” (or a link to a page) on this website that could explain/simplify the rules.

It would have the sport /beginning and end period, then list during the off-season what can be done, what is allowed, during what time periods, type of coaching contact, etc. Examples are helpful too.

I'd be curious if some sports have more restrictions than others.

This way student-athletes and parents can have a piece of mind what they are doing is legal. I say this because there have been many questions/interpretations of the rules in the past. I know here in the Green Bay area there have been parents calling the WIAA on other schools.

One example I’ll give is in hockey. First my apologies- I’m trying to be careful not send the wrong message here- but just provide an example:

Hockey is a sport one really needs to keep up with it in the off-season or your skills can really decline. There would be one school here who would be having “year round” skating sessions with a coach on the ice. Meanwhile the coaches from the other rival schools would be telling players/parents “As a coach, I can’t be out there on the ice.”

So parents call the WIAA on the school having the practices, and the WIAA tells them “The coach can be on the ice, as long as they aren’t coaching.”

So where’s the loophole? How is this school getting away with it? These are the types of situations we have encountered around here, and then rather overreact & spread accusations we can have more knowledge and a better understanding of the rules.



Hueby
#23 Posted : Sunday, May 06, 2012 5:57:59 AM(UTC)
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Ricardo Arguello wrote:

I've had some interesting e-mail feedback from some several prominent coaches and I would say 8-of-10 are a little worried about this rule leading to at least some specialization. One track coach of a local D1 track powerhouse told me that "it's already happened and it's affected his program."

-Ricardo


Almost sounds like Preble. I say that because many of their alumni who were multi-sport athletes spit out the word "specialization" a lot when referring to the school today.

What I find interesting is one alumni who played 3 sports & went on to get a college scholarship, today says if she had to do it all over again she would have cut back to 1-2 sports.

(I'm thinking "Why?, apparently the multi-sports got you there!?)

Another thing I find interesting is if it is Preble, that's scary! They have an outstanding track program and to think they could be even better - that is amazing. They have a lot of good looking athletes out there.
blade12
#24 Posted : Sunday, May 06, 2012 1:54:53 PM(UTC)
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Ricardo Arguello wrote:
Good discussion going on here, which is what I wanted to have happen with the column. I admit that I'm thinking of worst-case scenario with the three-sport athlete and this relaxation of the assembly rules by the WIAA, but Travis brings up some great points on why this may not be that big of a deal.

I've had some interesting e-mail feedback from some several prominent coaches and I would say 8-of-10 are a little worried about this rule leading to at least some specialization. One track coach of a local D1 track powerhouse told me that "it's already happened and it's affected his program."

-Ricardo



The 3 sport athletes have been dissappearing for 20 years. Relaxing the rules just gives more opportunity to push the limits and we all know that HS coaches/programs will push the limits.
hoopitup7
#25 Posted : Wednesday, May 09, 2012 8:13:25 AM(UTC)
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There are many little nuances but here is the main difference: The old rule specified out of season during the school year differently than out of season outside the school year. While school was in session in fall or spring, the rules were more stringent v. in the summertime the rules were more relaxed...meaning hs teammates were not to play together in the spring or fall...meaning that AAU had the monopoly on players that want to play in the spring or fall. All this does is allow hs teammates to play together in the fall or spring (at a much less cost, AAU is expensive for many families), they were already playing together in the summer.
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