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Making of a Murderer.......
traviswilson
#101 Posted : Monday, March 07, 2016 8:54:36 PM(UTC)

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icons wrote:
https://twitter.com/zellnerlaw

Loving me some Zellner. Picking apart the prosecution case bit by bit.

If by "picking apart" you mean providing no real evidence and not needing to back up what she is saying, then I guess so.
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quinnster10
#102 Posted : Saturday, March 12, 2016 12:05:57 AM(UTC)

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kenny78 wrote:
icons wrote:
https://twitter.com/zellnerlaw

Loving me some Zellner. Picking apart the prosecution case bit by bit.


Yeah, and it really makes me want to believe that this is the "truth" when a lawyer is pushing her so-called case through twitter. This guy is and always has been a piece of human garbage, and this attorney is proving herself to be no better. Perhaps the lawyer should spend time in the slammer with him.

If this clown was not guilty, how could he sit there in court and not react to outright lies? Nobody is that good of an actor. Nobody. Same thing was true with the Juice. If that is me in that chair they would have to duct-tape me down to shut me up because I could not sit there and listen to people make stuff up that I supposedly did without trying to defend myself.


Kathleen Zellner has assisted in exonerating numerous wrongfully convicted people. I won't say she's doing it solely out of the goodness of her heart as it appears she does it more-so to obtain the rights to defend them in their Civil Suits, where the real money can be made. However, to say she's proving herself to be on the same level as Avery is egregious at best.

For right or for wrong, Zellner is trying to change the public perception of this case which a lot of people directly impacted by this case, are steadfast in their belief that he is 100% guilty. Similar to what the prosecution did prior to the trial when Kratz delivered that fabricated story to the media that was scientifically proven inaccurate. If you want to compare anyone to Avery, Kratz is about as despicable as they come.

I'm not convinced of Avery's innocence by any means, but I'm not 100% convinced of his guilt either. Enough coincidences have been uncovered to raise even a sliver of doubt that he didn't do it.
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icons
#103 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 5:17:33 PM(UTC)
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Brendan's conviction overturned by federal judge. Outstanding....next up Steven Avery.
dfnewburry
#104 Posted : Saturday, August 13, 2016 7:14:55 PM(UTC)

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icons wrote:
Brendan's conviction overturned by federal judge. Outstanding....next up Steven Avery.


Steven Avery was wrongly convicted in the first case and his time in prison helped to create the monster who murdered Miss Halbach , but lets also remember this same man pointed the finger at Brendan when he was questioned by authorities .

Brendan has told the truth about who commited this murder regardless of how the system treated him .


icons
#105 Posted : Monday, August 15, 2016 4:39:51 PM(UTC)
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dfnewburry wrote:
icons wrote:
Brendan's conviction overturned by federal judge. Outstanding....next up Steven Avery.


Steven Avery was wrongly convicted in the first case and his time in prison helped to create the monster who murdered Miss Halbach , but lets also remember this same man pointed the finger at Brendan when he was questioned by authorities .

Brendan has told the truth about who commited this murder regardless of how the system treated him .





I prefer the old method of innocent beyond a reasonable doubt. But that's me....
cameroncrazies02
#106 Posted : Friday, August 11, 2017 11:33:15 PM(UTC)

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I'm bumping this from almost a year on the dot. I finally got around to watching this documentary and have a viewpoint that I think would be beneficial to hearing in regards to law enforcement, courts, the CJ system, etc.

I'm a police officer of 7 years. I've been on and worked homicide scenes, seen "corrupt police," stories planted on my co-workers that were completely untrue but nearly ruined their career and lives. I've drawn up my own search warrants and assisted in many others. I could go on and on. Sure, my view may be slanted, but I watched this and can't tell you how many times I, outloud, said, "Oh, C'MON!" to some of the rhetoric. Forgive me as this will be long winded, but I think beneficial. I'm going to go point by point but some of the arguments discussed on this thread.

Steven Avery's 1985 conviction-
Listen, 1985 was a lifetime ago. Policing has come such a long way in that time. In that sort of instance, they didn't have DNA evidence. And I think people watch shows like CSI and have this grand expectation of DNA evidence in 2017. An example, I had a gun case where possession was the issue. DNA was drawn from the firearm to identify whether the felon was the one in possession of it. To get the DNA was a circus to begin with. It took over a month of reports, documents, search warrants, meetings with judges just to get someone to say, "okay, you can get his DNA by a search warrant." From there, it took 9 months just to get the DNA results back. You can't just put it in a machine and get results instantly in 99.8% of cases. In the 1985 case, all they had to go on was the victim's identification. And the victim, with certainty, identified the suspect 100% positively as Steven Avery. That's usually one of the most damning pieces of evidence, that's what the case was built on. Was he wronged? Absolutely. But was the story drawn up to be this huge conspiracy that the police WANTED it to be Avery? Yes! We as law enforcement, don't care who the person is. It comes down to getting it right and getting the person who did the crime to face his or her punishment. The doc did a good job of making the viewer, right off the bat, believe Manitowoc County wanted Avery to face the punishment for it which automatically skews a person with no knowledge of law enforcement to believe they were corrupt.

Manitowoc County turning the case over to Calumet County-
This was a big time fumble on the part of Manitowoc County. But in their defense, in 2005, it was completely unheard of, for a police department to turn an entire case, something as big as a homicide, over to another agency. And lets not forget, Manitowoc County and Calumet County are small. They aren't armed with endless resources to solve crimes. A homicide, even in a big city that's not Milwaukee or Madison, is going to tap every single resource a department has. If they said they were going to turn the case over, they should've done it wholeheartedly. But seeing as how small those sheriff's departments were in 2005, it's not surprising to see some investigators from Manitowoc County were still involved.

Theory of framing Steven Avery-
This is the most ridiculous accusation and one that the entire documentary and defense was based on. Look, clearly nobody who is public about it, knows what truly happened to Tereas Halbach. So when that happens, you have to find evidence in the form of physical, psychological and testimonial evidence. Unfortunately, the thing I hate the most about the criminal justice system is how theatrical court has become. Each side has to tell a story. Usually, defense comes up with a, "woe is me" argument while prosecution has to paint a picture of how and why a person became a criminal and committed a crime. In these types of cases, prosecution is forced to take all the evidence they have or don't have, and create a story. Some holes were poked in the prosecution story for sure. But that's to be expected when there's no one person that can tell the entire story of what happened.

One of the biggest things that bothered me, and showed the reaching of this documentary crew, involved Sergeant Andy Colborn. They absolutely plastered him as a guy who had revenge deep in his soul to get back at Steven Avery. Follow the bouncing ball. Somewhere in the 90's, Colborn was working as a sergeant in the jail. He wasn't on patrol, simply a police officer in a jail. And he took phone calls. He received a phone call from an unknown detective from another agency that said, "hey, this case came up and its similar to a sexual assault you guys had (Avery's) and we want to talk to a detective about it." Colborn took the call and transferred it to somebody in the detective bureau. That is the ENTIRETY of his involvement in the 1985 Avery case. Then, when he gets exonerated, a civil suit comes to light where Avery sues Manitowoc County and Colborn is one of the persons subpoenaed. I can tell you from experience, when you're subpoenaed as a police officer into a civil case, it has absolutely no bearing on you, your career or your reputation. Civil court is sometimes a joke. Opinion, hear-say and other unreliable testimony can be heard. It's rarely ever scientific or official. So when Colborn is subpoenaed, he was probably directed to leave a report to his involvement so he has some sort of official documentation to the incident. Civil subpoenaes can come up as quickly as 48 hours before the court date actually happens. That's why Colborn left a report right before the civil suit. I'm quite positive he had very little to no recollection of the incident and had to be reminded of it. He probably didn't even know Avery before he was exonerated. Yet, throughout the entire documentary, he was placed in the spotlight as this guy who held secrets back, lied about it, made up a story and then had to get revenge. He doesn't care what happens in Avery's lawsuit. It doesn't effect him, his job, or his salary. He's protected under his employer in civil lawsuits. So why would he be vengeful at all? The fact that Manitowoc County turned this case over in the first place, regardless of how much or little involvement they had, shows some form of good they tried to do from the beginning.

Halbach's key found in Avery's bedroom-
If you listened carefully, and only if you listened carefully, you would hear how they found the key, because the doc wanted to protect that side of this piece of evidence. They painted it as, Halbach's key was found laying in the open on the bedroom floor aafter the 5th search. It was talked about at one point, that the key was actually found in a nightstand, in the back of a drawer, and not even found there. Only after the nightstand was dumped over and emptied of all of its contents did the key fall out, amongst other items I presume and later found when those items were shuffled. It was then photographed and because those items were moved, the photograph makes it look like it was just laying out in the open. Look, when a search warrant is executed, especially under something like a homicide, every slight stain of darkness, every single piece of paper, every knife in the knife drawer, knife block, every text message, every phone call, could be evidence. Combing through all of that is daunting. And you can search through things, toss them aside thinking it's something miniscule and only later, when more evidence is found out, does that thing that was tossed aside, become a key piece of evidence. I'm not saying a key to a Honda may have been tossed aside, but it could have been. They owend a junk yard, something like 50 acres of junkyard if I might add. I'm sure they found dozens and dozens of keys. Even if someone saw that key before, it may not have clicked until later.

Amount of time held on the Avery property-
You can hold a property under law enforcement control as long you'd like, as long as you still have control of that property, meaning law enforcement is still present. Calumet County held that crime scene for a very long time and was evident in the clips they showed. They talked about the crime scene log and how there was a deputy checking someone in and out every time a detective testified. It was never brought up as "evidence" that they re-entered the property illegally, which leads me to believe they held that property properly. They played the sob story that the family was uprooted from their property for so long, but in such a high profile case in such a small town where this thing was the lead story on every news station, every night, I'd much rather take heat for holding the property too long, than to give it up only to find out something you saw there and thought wasn't evidence and left aside, was later found to be the smoking gun. Then you have to get another warrant and hope the evidence is still there. And even then, you have to explain away your carelessness in court.

"Planted" car and body parts-
Again, follow the bouncing ball. Teresa Halbach's mutilated, castrated and burned body parts were found in a firepit behind Steven Avery's trailer. Her car was found on the property on the furthest line along the side of the junkyard. For the police to have planted this entire case, they would've had to a) kill Teresa Halbach, b) take her car, plant Avery's blood in the car, move the car onto the property inside the junkyard, and c) placed her chopped up body in Avery's firepit and burn it there. That alone, should tell anyone who watched this, that it wasn't physically possible for the police to have done it.

Blood planted from Avery's 1985 case-
They had this huge hanger in one episode where the lawyers thought they found their smoking gun to exonerate Avery again. They pulled apart the old test tubes with Avery's blood and found a pinhole in the top of it. Their theory was the evidence was opened, blood was drawn from it and planted on Halbach's car. Any person with any medical background higher than a CNA will tell you, when blood is draw, it is drawn into a larger tube, then introduced into the test tubes. It's introduced, at times, through the top of the tube, through an air tight seal that can only be penetrated by needle that won't expose it to air. So right off the bat, I laughed at this proposition. Then, they tried to argue that DOJ Crime Lab helped Manitowoc/Calumet County frame Avery by going into the blood, drawing it from it and turning it over to them to plant. Let me tell you from experience, DOJ is not exactly law enforcement friendly. They're not going to buddy-buddy up with you just because you're a cop. Many of their cases involve investigating elected officials, so their job is to get it right. They didn't go through this big cover up, then make up some phony test and present it in court as evidence. DOJ Crime Lab members aren't cops. Their scientists. They're not sworn law enforcement. They come into court and present scientific evidence. They don't care who it benefits.

Brendan Dassey interview, confession, DNA conundrum-
I will be the first one to admit, the Brendan Dassey interview left me with a bad taste in my mouth. It wasn't the cleanest interview I've ever seen and there was a lot of shortcuts taken. Law enforcement in general took a lot of learning pieces from this case, and Dassey's interview was one of them. You can't put words in someone's mouth who's so uneducated and impressionable. I can't speak for law enforcement in 2005, but from what I saw there was some training issues and some laziness/tired issues. After hours of an interview, not only is the suspect taxed, detectives/police are taxed just as much if not more. They were so close to getting Brendan to say what he actually knew, saw, etc. And what would be the most damning would be for Brendan to say something that only someone with intimate knowledge of the incident would know. They were close to that, but at the last minute, they gave him the words to say. I have no idea what to think of Brendan's case. It wasn't covered nearly as much as Avery's. I stick to my argument that we saw about 18% of what actually was proposed as evidence in court. But 12 jurors heard the case against Brendan Dassey, including his version of the story not matching up to evidence, and still unanimously found him guilty. That's the buffer from the criminal justice system to get something right. If a simple citizen hears a case and is certain they committed the crime, let alone 12 unanimously, I'm more inclined to believe that person was guilty.

The issue with his version of the story and the DNA not matching up was well known. His version was her throat was cut, she was beaten and bleeding, yet there was no evidence of it. I'm certain Avery didn't clean up that place spotless to cover the blood/DNA trail, yet left her car key and car on his property. I believe Brendan had knowledge and was somewhat involved, but to say his version is correct would be a reach. Regardless, his case went through every appeals court until now without an overturn. I've seen more solid cases than this inexplicably overturned by the appeals court. So clearly, there was more evidence than what the doc led the viewer to believe.

Documentary filmmaker downfalls-
One of the things that made this doc so incredibly laughable at times was their interview of that excused juror from Avery's case. At no point did he ever discuss what happened in that room, outside of a 1 minute clip of him talking about how some jurors were passive, others were persuasive, etc. But they found a juror that helped them spin their narrative and ran with it. With how deep this doc went, I believe they reached out to every juror on Avery's case for an interview and they were either turned down or interviewed and didn't like the content they received so they didn't air it. They also didn't interview a single person that was involved from the prosecution side. Now, you won't find a current DA's office employee or sheriff's department employee that would interview for something like this, but again, my hunch is that they reached out, found a few people who had knowledge, received content, it didn't help their narrative so they cut. Ahh, the magic of "filmmaking."

There was an awful lot of lobbying in this doc as well. The lawyers on Avery's side saw this as their OJ Simpson case. They thought they'd springboard this case into an illustrious career and even have it mapped out for them, day by day, on film. Some of their empathy and anger towards it was laughable. Lawyers can't have consciences to do their job and if you talk to any of them, they walk into cases without opinions or feelings. How else could you defend a person who sexually assaults a kid, murders an innocent person, etc? Much the same from the law enforcement side. I've seen ****** no human being should ever see. You can't have emotions or feelings when you're doing your work or else you wouldn't last a month. But the lawyers played up the narrative for this doc perfectly, a lot of anger, gritting teeth, crocodile tears, etc.

Let me end on this if anyone's still reading...I was involved in a case where I found a man in possession of a large quantity of drugs. Some of the probable cause that led to the stop the night drugs were found came from an incident previously where I issued him a citation. I had a partner, we drove in a two-man squad. My partner was driving and to start the shift, had logged into all of our databases under his username. When we issued the guy the citation that night, I wrote up the citation while my partner drove and it was later mailed to the suspect. In court, over a year later, our testimony differed, because we didn't remember the exact order in which that occurred. It was a simple traffic stop, a simple citation with no report, something that I had done literally hundreds of times since the court date. I testified first and was shown the citation under my partner's name. I testified my partner had issued it. My partner was not in the courtroom for this testimony, so when he testified, he looked at it, read the way the citation was issued and theorized correctly that I had written it under his name. It was a simple mistake that had absolutely no bearing on the incident that night or the stop a week later where I found the drugs. But in court, I was brought back to the stand and ran through the ringer by the defense who proposed to the judge that I intentionally lied, was racist, had it out for his client and distanced myself from that original stop so it wouldn't look as suspicious when I stopped him a week later and planted a large amount of drugs in his car. We had to have a whole separate hearing on this to judge my character, my honesty and my integrity. All in all, the judge finalized that it was a ridiculous claim and the theory was thrown out. And that was a public defender who was not being paid by his client. Now add in paid, high-profile lawyers with oodles and oodles of times to scour through every single word of every document and every millimeter of evidence and they will absolutely find something that has questions to it, whether they're valid or not. And even if they're not valid, they will throw it out to you to try to make you look like the most incompetent Barney Fife alive. Now add in a documentary filmmaker in the career of creating drama through melodramatic music, cut scenes and angles and you can convince anyone of anything.

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mickjagger
#107 Posted : Saturday, August 12, 2017 12:43:47 AM(UTC)

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Thanks, CC, for sharing. Appreciate your candidness, along with your professional insights & commentary.

I live in Calumet County (SE corner of Appleton) and have followed Avery's comings & goings since he was vindicated & released from prison before the Halbach murder.

My business partner's daughter was a prison guard at the Boscobel facility where Avery was initially incarcerated after his conviction for the Halbach murder. Her first-hand accounts of Avery's quirks and his manipulative & conniving personality & behavior were not exactly flattering.

Not for a minute do I believe this psychopathic piece-of-work was innocent.
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buzzerbeater2
#108 Posted : Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:41:28 PM(UTC)

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He may or may not have done it, but a lot people are happy he is behind bars.

As far as the cops, my dad watched about an hour of the documentary, and said this about one of the very high up officers from Manitowoc:

"I played pool with him all the time after I got back from the service. That guy needed to be watched at all times, because he'd cheat at every opportunity. I wouldn't trust him making a sandwich."

The whole thing stinks. Being from that county, I'd stay away from that salvage yard, and I'd stay far away from anyone from the sheriff's office.

Mike McCarthy is challenging the ruling on the field that he has 3 timeouts remaining.
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dawgstyle
#109 Posted : Tuesday, September 12, 2017 3:26:35 PM(UTC)

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buzzerbeater2 wrote:
He may or may not have done it, but a lot people are happy he is behind bars.

As far as the cops, my dad watched about an hour of the documentary, and said this about one of the very high up officers from Manitowoc:

"I played pool with him all the time after I got back from the service. That guy needed to be watched at all times, because he'd cheat at every opportunity. I wouldn't trust him making a sandwich."

The whole thing stinks. Being from that county, I'd stay away from that salvage yard, and I'd stay far away from anyone from the sheriff's office.



"Documentary"
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buzzerbeater2
#110 Posted : Tuesday, September 12, 2017 5:29:15 PM(UTC)

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dawgstyle wrote:
buzzerbeater2 wrote:
He may or may not have done it, but a lot people are happy he is behind bars.

As far as the cops, my dad watched about an hour of the documentary, and said this about one of the very high up officers from Manitowoc:

"I played pool with him all the time after I got back from the service. That guy needed to be watched at all times, because he'd cheat at every opportunity. I wouldn't trust him making a sandwich."

The whole thing stinks. Being from that county, I'd stay away from that salvage yard, and I'd stay far away from anyone from the sheriff's office.



"Documentary"


"OK"
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cameroncrazies02
#111 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:40:28 PM(UTC)

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buzzerbeater2 wrote:
He may or may not have done it, but a lot people are happy he is behind bars.

As far as the cops, my dad watched about an hour of the documentary, and said this about one of the very high up officers from Manitowoc:

"I played pool with him all the time after I got back from the service. That guy needed to be watched at all times, because he'd cheat at every opportunity. I wouldn't trust him making a sandwich."

The whole thing stinks. Being from that county, I'd stay away from that salvage yard, and I'd stay far away from anyone from the sheriff's office.



It's unfortunate you classify it as, "anyone from the sheriff's office."
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buzzerbeater2
#112 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:41:53 AM(UTC)

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By not committing crimes or doing anything suspicious, I stay away from them. Pretty good system for me thus far.
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