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Jonathan Taylor
mickjagger
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 12, 2017 8:32:39 PM(UTC)

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Might as well start his own thread now.

UW true freshman running back Jonathan Taylor has been named Big 10 Freshman of the week and Big 10 Co-Offensive Player of the week for his 223-yard, 3-touchdown performance vs Florida Atlantic this past Saturday (9/9/17):

http://www.wkow.com/stor...ten-freshman-of-the-week
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thecrackerjack
#2 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 6:54:17 AM(UTC)

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He deserves his own thread. He has incredible talent, and to think that he was a Rutgers commit until UW flipped him.
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elsmith4
#3 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:30:14 AM(UTC)
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How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?
thecrackerjack
#4 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:50:34 AM(UTC)

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elsmith4 wrote:
How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?


Yes
Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all.

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dawgstyle
#5 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:04:17 AM(UTC)

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thecrackerjack wrote:
elsmith4 wrote:
How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?


Yes


35 carries into his college career he is already an early NFL entry.

He hasn't even played enough games to lose his redshirt.
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wiscopetty
#6 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:20:56 AM(UTC)

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dawgstyle wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
elsmith4 wrote:
How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?


Yes


35 carries into his college career he is already an early NFL entry.

He hasn't even played enough games to lose his redshirt.

I agree it's waaaaaaay too early for this kind of discussion. So he tore it up against Utah State and FAU. I'm not exactly looking for him in 2020 mock drafts yet.

More generally, yes, the trend is toward running backs leaving early. They have some of the shortest careers in the NFL, so they have to make that money while they can. i think you are seeing more schools start true and redshirt freshmen at running back if they are good enough, because they know the kid will bolt for the NFL at the first opportunity.
thecrackerjack
#7 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:23:52 AM(UTC)

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wiscopetty wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
elsmith4 wrote:
How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?


Yes


35 carries into his college career he is already an early NFL entry.

He hasn't even played enough games to lose his redshirt.

I agree it's waaaaaaay too early for this kind of discussion. So he tore it up against Utah State and FAU. I'm not exactly looking for him in 2020 mock drafts yet.

More generally, yes, the trend is toward running backs leaving early. They have some of the shortest careers in the NFL, so they have to make that money while they can. i think you are seeing more schools start true and redshirt freshmen at running back if they are good enough, because they know the kid will bolt for the NFL at the first opportunity.


It is definitely way too early, but the point you hit on about short NFL careers is why I replied with a "yes." If I'm a colleg RB, I'm bolting as soon as I can. It is clear this kid has talent, but he has a lot to prove yet, and there's along ways to go before he is eligible.
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smsnyder
#8 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:46:55 AM(UTC)
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dawgstyle wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
elsmith4 wrote:
How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?


Yes


35 carries into his college career he is already an early NFL entry.

He hasn't even played enough games to lose his redshirt.


He lost his redshirt the first snap he took in the Utah State game.

For good running backs with decent measurables, the default is to plan on 3 years & if they stay 4, they're the exception.

Since 2000, there have been 11 different players who have been the primary/starting RB to begin the season. 5 left UW with having used up all of their eligibility.

Played 5 years:
Anthony Davis
Montee Ball
James White
Dare Ogunbowale
Corey Clement

Davis was so small, leaving early wasn't really an option. Ogunbowale was a converted RB who couldn't leave early. Clement would have left early had he not lost so much time to injury. That leaves Ball & White as the only 2 guys who could conceivably left early for the NFL and opted to stay.

6 Players left with eligibility remaining:
Michael Bennett (draft early entry)
Dwayne Smith (injury)
Brian Calhoun (draft early entry)
PJ Hill (draft early entry)
John Clay (draft early entry)
Melvin Gordon (draft early entry)

With Taylor's speed and size, he will be able to leave early if he wants to. As a Badger fan, it would be great if he stayed & played for 4. But past history makes a pretty strong case that that is unlikely.
dawgstyle
#9 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:56:52 AM(UTC)

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smsnyder wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
elsmith4 wrote:
How long does Taylor stay at UW? does he start for 3 seasons and dash to the NFL?


Yes


35 carries into his college career he is already an early NFL entry.

He hasn't even played enough games to lose his redshirt.


He lost his redshirt the first snap he took in the Utah State game.

For good running backs with decent measurables, the default is to plan on 3 years & if they stay 4, they're the exception.

Since 2000, there have been 11 different players who have been the primary/starting RB to begin the season. 5 left UW with having used up all of their eligibility.

Played 5 years:
Anthony Davis
Montee Ball
James White
Dare Ogunbowale
Corey Clement

Davis was so small, leaving early wasn't really an option. Ogunbowale was a converted RB who couldn't leave early. Clement would have left early had he not lost so much time to injury. That leaves Ball & White as the only 2 guys who could conceivably left early for the NFL and opted to stay.

6 Players left with eligibility remaining:
Michael Bennett (draft early entry)
Dwayne Smith (injury)
Brian Calhoun (draft early entry)
PJ Hill (draft early entry)
John Clay (draft early entry)
Melvin Gordon (draft early entry)

With Taylor's speed and size, he will be able to leave early if he wants to. As a Badger fan, it would be great if he stayed & played for 4. But past history makes a pretty strong case that that is unlikely.


He did not burn his redshirt on the first snap. He can play 4 games and keep his redshirt.

With his speed and size? Would you like a list of guys who played 2 games in college that had speed and size that were not able to leave early?

The problem with your sample size is you only listed RBs that got drafted. How many guys that played 4 or 5 years didn't get drafted. After 2 games, that is still a VERY real possibility for Taylor.
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smsnyder
#10 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 1:46:29 PM(UTC)
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dawgstyle wrote:


He did not burn his redshirt on the first snap. He can play 4 games and keep his redshirt.

With his speed and size? Would you like a list of guys who played 2 games in college that had speed and size that were not able to leave early?

The problem with your sample size is you only listed RBs that got drafted. How many guys that played 4 or 5 years didn't get drafted. After 2 games, that is still a VERY real possibility for Taylor.


Nope, that's just not true. Your redshirt is gone the instant you take the field, court, etc in a game. Period. If you have a season ending injury early enough in the year, then yes you can apply to get the year of eligibility back. But that's not a redshirt, it's something entirely different. It's not a choice and it's not guaranteed. If anything it's a pity prize. It's a pessimistic and really even twisted way to see it any other way. The guy played. One year of eligibility is gone. That only changes is something terrible happens to him.

The sample size was 16 years. Call it arbitrary if you want, I just felt like going back to 2000 was a nice round number to stop and still provide quite a few examples. I didn't only list the RBs that got drafted so that's a patently false accusation. Ogunbowale, Clement and Dwayne Smith all were undrafted. I selected the primary/starting RB for each year.

Lets go back a little further - one more year is Michael Bennett - who also left early. Before that - Dayne who is a perfect example of the exception that proves the rule. It was pretty much a major shock that he chose to return for his Senior year - choosing to do so almost certainly because he had a chance to break the career record. So that's now 20 years of starting Bader RBs. A reasonable sample size if ask me.

But we could make a little friendly wager if you like - you want to bet that Taylor plays at UW for 4 years? I bet he doesn't - unless he gets hurt or something. If he has a healthy 3 years, I bet he's gone.
dawgstyle
#11 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 2:12:06 PM(UTC)

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smsnyder wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:


He did not burn his redshirt on the first snap. He can play 4 games and keep his redshirt.

With his speed and size? Would you like a list of guys who played 2 games in college that had speed and size that were not able to leave early?

The problem with your sample size is you only listed RBs that got drafted. How many guys that played 4 or 5 years didn't get drafted. After 2 games, that is still a VERY real possibility for Taylor.


Nope, that's just not true. Your redshirt is gone the instant you take the field, court, etc in a game. Period. If you have a season ending injury early enough in the year, then yes you can apply to get the year of eligibility back. But that's not a redshirt, it's something entirely different. It's not a choice and it's not guaranteed. If anything it's a pity prize. It's a pessimistic and really even twisted way to see it any other way. The guy played. One year of eligibility is gone. That only changes is something terrible happens to him.

The sample size was 16 years. Call it arbitrary if you want, I just felt like going back to 2000 was a nice round number to stop and still provide quite a few examples. I didn't only list the RBs that got drafted so that's a patently false accusation. Ogunbowale, Clement and Dwayne Smith all were undrafted. I selected the primary/starting RB for each year.

Lets go back a little further - one more year is Michael Bennett - who also left early. Before that - Dayne who is a perfect example of the exception that proves the rule. It was pretty much a major shock that he chose to return for his Senior year - choosing to do so almost certainly because he had a chance to break the career record. So that's now 20 years of starting Bader RBs. A reasonable sample size if ask me.

But we could make a little friendly wager if you like - you want to bet that Taylor plays at UW for 4 years? I bet he doesn't - unless he gets hurt or something. If he has a healthy 3 years, I bet he's gone.


As long as you don't go over 30% of games and have a "season ending injury" you can apply for a medical redshirt. Argue semantics all you want, it is a redshirt. if you think all these guys are ACTUALLY having season ending injuries, you are lying to yourself. Ed Davis from Michigan State won scout team awards during his season ending injury and still qualified. Michigan plays freshman in non conference games and then "redshirts" them. Like it or not, you can play 4 games and still get a redshirt. That is a fact.

The sample size isn't the time frame, its just the starting RBs. I realize that is what you stated you are looking at, but being a starter for 2 games guarantees nothing. Go ask Big Ten Freshman of the year and 2016 Ohio State starting RB Mike Weber how it is working out for him.

"Unless he gets hurt or something?" Who would take a wager like that. What is something? That is entirely my point. You have NO IDEA what is going to happen to this kid in the next 3 years. He could lose his job. He could get kicked off the team. He could transfer due to a coaching change. He could retire from football. To project a true freshman that is basically nobody as an early entry in the NFL draft after 2 games is insane. Especially when you note the competition.
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thecrackerjack
#12 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 2:15:08 PM(UTC)

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Isn't Mike Weber banged up? He didn't even suit up in Ohio State's opener.
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dawgstyle
#13 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 2:41:40 PM(UTC)

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thecrackerjack wrote:
Isn't Mike Weber banged up? He didn't even suit up in Ohio State's opener.


He has been surpassed by Dobbins. They talked about it quite a bit during the Oklahoma game. From a Michigan fan standpoint this is talked about quite a bit. Against Oklahoma he got 3 carries.

https://www.landof10.com...otball-oklahoma-starter

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smsnyder
#14 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:43:01 PM(UTC)
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dawgstyle wrote:

As long as you don't go over 30% of games and have a "season ending injury" you can apply for a medical redshirt. Argue semantics all you want, it is a redshirt. if you think all these guys are ACTUALLY having season ending injuries, you are lying to yourself. Ed Davis from Michigan State won scout team awards during his season ending injury and still qualified. Michigan plays freshman in non conference games and then "redshirts" them. Like it or not, you can play 4 games and still get a redshirt. That is a fact.

The sample size isn't the time frame, its just the starting RBs. I realize that is what you stated you are looking at, but being a starter for 2 games guarantees nothing. Go ask Big Ten Freshman of the year and 2016 Ohio State starting RB Mike Weber how it is working out for him.

"Unless he gets hurt or something?" Who would take a wager like that. What is something? That is entirely my point. You have NO IDEA what is going to happen to this kid in the next 3 years. He could lose his job. He could get kicked off the team. He could transfer due to a coaching change. He could retire from football. To project a true freshman that is basically nobody as an early entry in the NFL draft after 2 games is insane. Especially when you note the competition.


Which of the guys I listed started only 2 games? None. Each player was the primary starter & leading rusher for a season.

I know it feels like citing Ed Davis and that scout team thing seems is such a great got'cha. Yeah, they really "gamed" the system there, faking an injury to get the year back. Except that the "fake" injury was a torn ACL. The Medical Hardship Waiver specifically applies to any athlete with a season ending injury during his 4 years of eligibility or during his senior year of high school. So just blow out your ACL and you too can be granted an extra year to play.

You can put it in quotes all you want - "season ending injury" requires medical documentation.

Yes, Taylor shouldn't be anointed anything yet. 100% agree with you there. But it's also pretty plain to see the guy has NFL talent. I'm not sure why message board posters shouldn't be able to ponder the thought that 3 good years would lead to an early entry.
dawgstyle
#15 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:26:58 PM(UTC)

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smsnyder wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:

As long as you don't go over 30% of games and have a "season ending injury" you can apply for a medical redshirt. Argue semantics all you want, it is a redshirt. if you think all these guys are ACTUALLY having season ending injuries, you are lying to yourself. Ed Davis from Michigan State won scout team awards during his season ending injury and still qualified. Michigan plays freshman in non conference games and then "redshirts" them. Like it or not, you can play 4 games and still get a redshirt. That is a fact.

The sample size isn't the time frame, its just the starting RBs. I realize that is what you stated you are looking at, but being a starter for 2 games guarantees nothing. Go ask Big Ten Freshman of the year and 2016 Ohio State starting RB Mike Weber how it is working out for him.

"Unless he gets hurt or something?" Who would take a wager like that. What is something? That is entirely my point. You have NO IDEA what is going to happen to this kid in the next 3 years. He could lose his job. He could get kicked off the team. He could transfer due to a coaching change. He could retire from football. To project a true freshman that is basically nobody as an early entry in the NFL draft after 2 games is insane. Especially when you note the competition.


Which of the guys I listed started only 2 games? None. Each player was the primary starter & leading rusher for a season.

I know it feels like citing Ed Davis and that scout team thing seems is such a great got'cha. Yeah, they really "gamed" the system there, faking an injury to get the year back. Except that the "fake" injury was a torn ACL. The Medical Hardship Waiver specifically applies to any athlete with a season ending injury during his 4 years of eligibility or during his senior year of high school. So just blow out your ACL and you too can be granted an extra year to play.

You can put it in quotes all you want - "season ending injury" requires medical documentation.

Yes, Taylor shouldn't be anointed anything yet. 100% agree with you there. But it's also pretty plain to see the guy has NFL talent. I'm not sure why message board posters shouldn't be able to ponder the thought that 3 good years would lead to an early entry.

Ed Davis didn't tear his ACL his freshman year. To get a 6th year you have to prove you had 2 years ended by injury. Go read the bio.on the Michigan State website for Ed Davis. He clearly didnt have a season ending injury that his freshman year. But hey, at least you looked into one year of Ed Davis, it just happened to be the wrong year.

David Long of Michigan played 4 games last year. Then magically stopped playing. He is a redshirt freshman. Documentation by team doctors is not hard.

I don't know how many examples it will take for you to admit your wrong, but let me know, I can likely provide them.
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smsnyder
#16 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:54:41 PM(UTC)
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dawgstyle wrote:
smsnyder wrote:


I know it feels like citing Ed Davis and that scout team thing seems is such a great got'cha. Yeah, they really "gamed" the system there, faking an injury to get the year back. Except that the "fake" injury was a torn ACL. The Medical Hardship Waiver specifically applies to any athlete with a season ending injury during his 4 years of eligibility or during his senior year of high school. So just blow out your ACL and you too can be granted an extra year to play.

You can put it in quotes all you want - "season ending injury" requires medical documentation.

Yes, Taylor shouldn't be anointed anything yet. 100% agree with you there. But it's also pretty plain to see the guy has NFL talent. I'm not sure why message board posters shouldn't be able to ponder the thought that 3 good years would lead to an early entry.

Ed Davis didn't tear his ACL his freshman year. To get a 6th year you have to prove you had 2 years ended by injury. Go read the bio.on the Michigan State website for Ed Davis. He clearly didnt have a season ending injury that his freshman year. But hey, at least you looked into one year of Ed Davis, it just happened to be the wrong year.

David Long of Michigan played 4 games last year. Then magically stopped playing. He is a redshirt freshman. Documentation by team doctors is not hard.

I don't know how many examples it will take for you to admit your wrong, but let me know, I can likely provide them.


I'm sorry, guess if you're not going to actually read what I post, we might just as well stop. Davis' ACL tear in 2015 was his second. He tore his ACL in his other knee his senior year of high school. And again (I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you actually read it the first time) Medical Hardship Waivers explicitly include season-ending injuries during a recruits senior year of high school. That's how he got a 6th year. Two torn ACLs. Or maybe it was just all fabricated.

Worst of all, I feel like I need to take a shower for more or less having to defend Michigan State on anything - but for crying out loud man, your Michigan bias is so high you just see what you want. But take your time...re-read what I said. I never said he got hurt his freshman year. SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL.

But I guess doctors are just turning in fake x-rays and MRIs and whatnot so I'm sure it's all just faked. And they definitely hand out 6th years like candy - everybody gets one, right?
dawgstyle
#17 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:47:59 PM(UTC)

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smsnyder wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
smsnyder wrote:


I know it feels like citing Ed Davis and that scout team thing seems is such a great got'cha. Yeah, they really "gamed" the system there, faking an injury to get the year back. Except that the "fake" injury was a torn ACL. The Medical Hardship Waiver specifically applies to any athlete with a season ending injury during his 4 years of eligibility or during his senior year of high school. So just blow out your ACL and you too can be granted an extra year to play.

You can put it in quotes all you want - "season ending injury" requires medical documentation.

Yes, Taylor shouldn't be anointed anything yet. 100% agree with you there. But it's also pretty plain to see the guy has NFL talent. I'm not sure why message board posters shouldn't be able to ponder the thought that 3 good years would lead to an early entry.

Ed Davis didn't tear his ACL his freshman year. To get a 6th year you have to prove you had 2 years ended by injury. Go read the bio.on the Michigan State website for Ed Davis. He clearly didnt have a season ending injury that his freshman year. But hey, at least you looked into one year of Ed Davis, it just happened to be the wrong year.

David Long of Michigan played 4 games last year. Then magically stopped playing. He is a redshirt freshman. Documentation by team doctors is not hard.

I don't know how many examples it will take for you to admit your wrong, but let me know, I can likely provide them.


I'm sorry, guess if you're not going to actually read what I post, we might just as well stop. Davis' ACL tear in 2015 was his second. He tore his ACL in his other knee his senior year of high school. And again (I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you actually read it the first time) Medical Hardship Waivers explicitly include season-ending injuries during a recruits senior year of high school. That's how he got a 6th year. Two torn ACLs. Or maybe it was just all fabricated.

Worst of all, I feel like I need to take a shower for more or less having to defend Michigan State on anything - but for crying out loud man, your Michigan bias is so high you just see what you want. But take your time...re-read what I said. I never said he got hurt his freshman year. SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL.

But I guess doctors are just turning in fake x-rays and MRIs and whatnot so I'm sure it's all just faked. And they definitely hand out 6th years like candy - everybody gets one, right?

My Michigan bias where I used David Long as an example of how Michigan played a guy for 4 games and then redshirted him?


12.8.1.5.1 Waiver Criteria. A waiver of the five-year period of eligibility is designed to provide a studentathlete
with the opportunity to participate in four seasons of intercollegiate competition within a five-year
period. This waiver may be granted, based upon objective evidence, for reasons that are beyond the control
of the student-athlete or the institution, which deprive the student-athlete of the opportunity to participate
for more than one season in his or her sport within the five-year period.

2011 SEASON: Redshirted . . . named Scout Team Defensive Player of the Week vs. Minnesota . . . selected Scout Team Special Teams Player of the Week vs. Central Michigan.

So he was too injured to play but he could win scout team player of the week twice?

Lastly, since you are willing to claim it, feel free to provide a link showing he tore his acl in high school, as I can't find anything confirming that. The closest I could find was

Since the injury was the second significant one for Davis, he was eligible to apply for a sixth year of eligibility. Michigan State said Davis was unable to play during his first season on campus, 2011, due to an injury he suffered while in high school.
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dawgstyle
#18 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:50:48 PM(UTC)

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Just to clarify, the original discussion wasn't about 6th years. It was about a 5th year after playing in a game in 4 years. And again I can show you plenty of examples. But hey, keep ignoring the fact that you are wrong. 1 snap doesn't burn a redshirt.
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coachw12
#19 Posted : Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:56:57 PM(UTC)
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Hopefully they will not run him into the ground like so many other Wisconsin running backs. They are great in college but have so many miles on them by pro debut they are used up.
smsnyder
#20 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 2:21:25 AM(UTC)
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dawgstyle wrote:


My Michigan bias where I used David Long as an example of how Michigan played a guy for 4 games and then redshirted him?


12.8.1.5.1 Waiver Criteria. A waiver of the five-year period of eligibility is designed to provide a studentathlete
with the opportunity to participate in four seasons of intercollegiate competition within a five-year
period. This waiver may be granted, based upon objective evidence, for reasons that are beyond the control
of the student-athlete or the institution, which deprive the student-athlete of the opportunity to participate
for more than one season in his or her sport within the five-year period.

2011 SEASON: Redshirted . . . named Scout Team Defensive Player of the Week vs. Minnesota . . . selected Scout Team Special Teams Player of the Week vs. Central Michigan.

So he was too injured to play but he could win scout team player of the week twice?

Lastly, since you are willing to claim it, feel free to provide a link showing he tore his acl in high school, as I can't find anything confirming that. The closest I could find was

Since the injury was the second significant one for Davis, he was eligible to apply for a sixth year of eligibility. Michigan State said Davis was unable to play during his first season on campus, 2011, due to an injury he suffered while in high school.


Wait - didn't you accuse me of just reading from his bio? Would seem to me, you're the one who's taking a superficial glimpse and drawing conclusions. The Michigan bias is thinking you've got some great dirt on a MSU player when you don't since you are wrong both about his injury history and not understanding the rule.

"Davis enrolled at Michigan State in July of 2011 after tearing his ACL his senior year [of high school]"

source

Your quote pertains to the 5 year clock (ie getting a 6th year). That's a separate issue. 14.2.4 is the Hardship Waiver for regaining a year of eligibility.

"14.2.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference
or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as
an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions..."

I'm not sure what's with this fascination you have with the fact that the guy was able to do some work on scout teams or makes it so tough to understand the rules specifically apply to injuries during an athlete's senior year of high school. Language is very clear:

"The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any twoyear
or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior year
in high school; )"

This makes sense and is a good rule that helps protect the kids. (Probably one of the few rules that does). Rather than forcing them to try and rush into playing before they're fully healed or leave them high & dry when schools pull a scholarship due to an injury that late in their HS career, they're protected by not burning the year. For Davis, like anyone with a ACL reconstruction, he lost a minimum of 6-9 months. Playing on scout team in September doesn't mean he was cleared and able to participate when the team started practices in late summer. To be sure - in many cases, there's gray area in terms of what "inability to compete" is. If an athlete was injured and not cleared to play any of the regular season games, but is cleared 2 days before a bowl, does that mean it wasn't season-ending? What about last regular season game? Where is the line? I don't know. But to argue ACL shouldn't be considered season-ending is frankly, ridiculous. And the rules say, during their last year of HS counts - even if a guy is able to run around and contribute on scout teams.

But none of that is a redshirt. Sometimes it's referred to as a "medical redshirt" but that's not the appropriate term. A redshirt is when you don't play - it's the not playing part that preserves your year of eligibility. Once you play, that's no longer an option. If you have an "incapacity from injury or illness, that meets the criteria (<30% of games, prior to midpoint of the season, etc), you can apply to get the season back. It's administered through the conference (not the NCAA) so there may be some variation but the guidelines are clear. Maybe Michigan can just magically sit guys out without documentation, but Wisconsin sure as hell can't. For example, the process to get D'cota Dixon's year of eligibility back after missing most of his freshman year was just recently approved. And that was a torn labrum that required surgery. Here's the rule schools without a magic wand follow with regard to documentation:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request.
dawgstyle
#21 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 7:20:06 AM(UTC)

All American
Posts: 5,547
High Fives: 148
High Fived: 279
Joined: 11/3/2007(UTC)
smsnyder wrote:


Wait - didn't you accuse me of just reading from his bio? Would seem to me, you're the one who's taking a superficial glimpse and drawing conclusions. The Michigan bias is thinking you've got some great dirt on a MSU player when you don't since you are wrong both about his injury history and not understanding the rule.

"Davis enrolled at Michigan State in July of 2011 after tearing his ACL his senior year [of high school]"

source

Your quote pertains to the 5 year clock (ie getting a 6th year). That's a separate issue. 14.2.4 is the Hardship Waiver for regaining a year of eligibility.

"14.2.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference
or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as
an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions..."

I'm not sure what's with this fascination you have with the fact that the guy was able to do some work on scout teams or makes it so tough to understand the rules specifically apply to injuries during an athlete's senior year of high school. Language is very clear:

"The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any twoyear
or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior year
in high school; )"

This makes sense and is a good rule that helps protect the kids. (Probably one of the few rules that does). Rather than forcing them to try and rush into playing before they're fully healed or leave them high & dry when schools pull a scholarship due to an injury that late in their HS career, they're protected by not burning the year. For Davis, like anyone with a ACL reconstruction, he lost a minimum of 6-9 months. Playing on scout team in September doesn't mean he was cleared and able to participate when the team started practices in late summer. To be sure - in many cases, there's gray area in terms of what "inability to compete" is. If an athlete was injured and not cleared to play any of the regular season games, but is cleared 2 days before a bowl, does that mean it wasn't season-ending? What about last regular season game? Where is the line? I don't know. But to argue ACL shouldn't be considered season-ending is frankly, ridiculous. And the rules say, during their last year of HS counts - even if a guy is able to run around and contribute on scout teams.

But none of that is a redshirt. Sometimes it's referred to as a "medical redshirt" but that's not the appropriate term. A redshirt is when you don't play - it's the not playing part that preserves your year of eligibility. Once you play, that's no longer an option. If you have an "incapacity from injury or illness, that meets the criteria (<30% of games, prior to midpoint of the season, etc), you can apply to get the season back. It's administered through the conference (not the NCAA) so there may be some variation but the guidelines are clear. Maybe Michigan can just magically sit guys out without documentation, but Wisconsin sure as hell can't. For example, the process to get D'cota Dixon's year of eligibility back after missing most of his freshman year was just recently approved. And that was a torn labrum that required surgery. Here's the rule schools without a magic wand follow with regard to documentation:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request.


Ok, first thank you for linking that article. I don't know how I didn't see that one as I read dozens of sites about him that never mentioned that. I did however learn that Ed Davis was a fantastic high school golfer.

I didn't accuse you of reading just his bio, I said you only read about one year. I was wrong in that.

I won't get to far into the Ed Davis thing as it really wasn't the point of the discussion. I used him as an example not because of my"Michigan Bias" or because I think that I have some dirt on the MSU program. i used the example because it was fresh in my mind and had been discussed in great length in the Michigan sports community. The point of citing his scout team awards is that he was CLEARLY healthy enough to play and just did not. I'm not disputing that the rule is in place for a good reason, I am just saying that Ed Davis COULD have played his freshman year, regardless of his injury his Senior year. Since he COULD have played, he shouldn't have received a 6th year. Call that Michigan bias all you want, it wasn't exactly a minority opinion when it happened.

Now, but to the original discussion. Can a guy play in a game and get a redshirt. As I stated before you are just arguing semantics. You say it is sometimes referred to as a medical redshirt. No, it is almost UNIVERSALLY referred to as a medical redshirt. Those players that get it granted are considered redshirt(insert year here).

You used D'cota Dixon as an example. He has been at UW for 3 seasons. He has played in all 3 seasons. True or false, Dixon is regarded as a Redshirt Junior? But as you stated, he can't be a redshirt, because he played a snap in all 3 seasons.

Again, semantics or not, you can play 4 games, (assuming your team will make a bowl game) and still get a redshirt.

Lastly, the doctor thing. This is Division 1 college football. These programs are worth billions of dollars. If you don't think that they have doctors that are invested enough to create fake injuries for the sake of the players and the program to get them an additional year, you are lying to yourself. You don't have to have an injury that requires an MRI. Nothing in:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request. [/quote]

leads me to believe that a team doctor couldn't just write up reports saying that a player was working through an issue with a hamstring, which you can't provide any testing for, and get them granted a medical redshirt. This is no different than a trial where an attorney can provide a psychologist that says the defendant is legally insane. It is happening.

@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
thecrackerjack
#22 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 8:29:57 AM(UTC)

WSNxtra: Member of WSN Xtra
All State
Posts: 4,699
High Fives: 54
High Fived: 92
Joined: 11/27/2005(UTC)
dawgstyle wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
Isn't Mike Weber banged up? He didn't even suit up in Ohio State's opener.


He has been surpassed by Dobbins. They talked about it quite a bit during the Oklahoma game. From a Michigan fan standpoint this is talked about quite a bit. Against Oklahoma he got 3 carries.

https://www.landof10.com...otball-oklahoma-starter



Weber is still hurt. He felt his hamstring tighten again after the 2nd carry in the Oklahoma game, which would help explain why he only had 3 carries against the Sooners.

http://www.cleveland.com....html#incart_river_index
Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all.

- Yvon Chouinard

@miedent

WSN Hall of Fame - Class of 2016
elsmith4
#23 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:45:47 AM(UTC)
All Conference
Posts: 1,423
High Fives: 25
High Fived: 39
Joined: 9/13/2008(UTC)
Here's an interesting question that will need the season to determine.. Who has the edge for B1G freshman of the year, Dobbins or Taylor? I would say Taylor because he will probably end up being more valuable to the Badgers, but that same case could be made for Dobbins as well if Barrett continues his sub par play for a 5th year senior.
iwishiwasaballer
#24 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:29:09 PM(UTC)

All Conference
Posts: 2,492
High Fives: 167
High Fived: 528
Joined: 12/28/2011(UTC)
dawgstyle wrote:
smsnyder wrote:


Wait - didn't you accuse me of just reading from his bio? Would seem to me, you're the one who's taking a superficial glimpse and drawing conclusions. The Michigan bias is thinking you've got some great dirt on a MSU player when you don't since you are wrong both about his injury history and not understanding the rule.

"Davis enrolled at Michigan State in July of 2011 after tearing his ACL his senior year [of high school]"

source

Your quote pertains to the 5 year clock (ie getting a 6th year). That's a separate issue. 14.2.4 is the Hardship Waiver for regaining a year of eligibility.

"14.2.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference
or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as
an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions..."

I'm not sure what's with this fascination you have with the fact that the guy was able to do some work on scout teams or makes it so tough to understand the rules specifically apply to injuries during an athlete's senior year of high school. Language is very clear:

"The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any twoyear
or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior year
in high school; )"

This makes sense and is a good rule that helps protect the kids. (Probably one of the few rules that does). Rather than forcing them to try and rush into playing before they're fully healed or leave them high & dry when schools pull a scholarship due to an injury that late in their HS career, they're protected by not burning the year. For Davis, like anyone with a ACL reconstruction, he lost a minimum of 6-9 months. Playing on scout team in September doesn't mean he was cleared and able to participate when the team started practices in late summer. To be sure - in many cases, there's gray area in terms of what "inability to compete" is. If an athlete was injured and not cleared to play any of the regular season games, but is cleared 2 days before a bowl, does that mean it wasn't season-ending? What about last regular season game? Where is the line? I don't know. But to argue ACL shouldn't be considered season-ending is frankly, ridiculous. And the rules say, during their last year of HS counts - even if a guy is able to run around and contribute on scout teams.

But none of that is a redshirt. Sometimes it's referred to as a "medical redshirt" but that's not the appropriate term. A redshirt is when you don't play - it's the not playing part that preserves your year of eligibility. Once you play, that's no longer an option. If you have an "incapacity from injury or illness, that meets the criteria (<30% of games, prior to midpoint of the season, etc), you can apply to get the season back. It's administered through the conference (not the NCAA) so there may be some variation but the guidelines are clear. Maybe Michigan can just magically sit guys out without documentation, but Wisconsin sure as hell can't. For example, the process to get D'cota Dixon's year of eligibility back after missing most of his freshman year was just recently approved. And that was a torn labrum that required surgery. Here's the rule schools without a magic wand follow with regard to documentation:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request.


Ok, first thank you for linking that article. I don't know how I didn't see that one as I read dozens of sites about him that never mentioned that. I did however learn that Ed Davis was a fantastic high school golfer.

I didn't accuse you of reading just his bio, I said you only read about one year. I was wrong in that.

I won't get to far into the Ed Davis thing as it really wasn't the point of the discussion. I used him as an example not because of my"Michigan Bias" or because I think that I have some dirt on the MSU program. i used the example because it was fresh in my mind and had been discussed in great length in the Michigan sports community. The point of citing his scout team awards is that he was CLEARLY healthy enough to play and just did not. I'm not disputing that the rule is in place for a good reason, I am just saying that Ed Davis COULD have played his freshman year, regardless of his injury his Senior year. Since he COULD have played, he shouldn't have received a 6th year. Call that Michigan bias all you want, it wasn't exactly a minority opinion when it happened.

Now, but to the original discussion. Can a guy play in a game and get a redshirt. As I stated before you are just arguing semantics. You say it is sometimes referred to as a medical redshirt. No, it is almost UNIVERSALLY referred to as a medical redshirt. Those players that get it granted are considered redshirt(insert year here).

You used D'cota Dixon as an example. He has been at UW for 3 seasons. He has played in all 3 seasons. True or false, Dixon is regarded as a Redshirt Junior? But as you stated, he can't be a redshirt, because he played a snap in all 3 seasons.

Again, semantics or not, you can play 4 games, (assuming your team will make a bowl game) and still get a redshirt.

Lastly, the doctor thing. This is Division 1 college football. These programs are worth billions of dollars. If you don't think that they have doctors that are invested enough to create fake injuries for the sake of the players and the program to get them an additional year, you are lying to yourself. You don't have to have an injury that requires an MRI. Nothing in:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request.

leads me to believe that a team doctor couldn't just write up reports saying that a player was working through an issue with a hamstring, which you can't provide any testing for, and get them granted a medical redshirt. This is no different than a trial where an attorney can provide a psychologist that says the defendant is legally insane. It is happening.



Just a question, did that rule amendment pass. Last I saw they were going to discuss it at a Spring or Summer meeting. - http://www.ncaa.com/news...-examined?sf94356491=1. Unless they're pretty loose with that waiver at this time

Using a season of competition


In the coming months, committee members will examine whether the rule determining when student-athletes have used a season of competition should be modified.

The current rule considers a student-athlete to have used a season of competition once he or she participates in competition, unless the student satisfies an exception or qualifies for a waiver.

A concept presented to the committee by the American Football Coaches Association suggests allowing a football student to compete in a limited number of football games throughout the season without using a season of competition.

The AFCA’s rationale for its recommendation is that each year some students exhaust a year of athletic eligibility by participating in a few games because of injuries sustained by others at their position. Those situations can be difficult for both the coach and the affected students.

“When that happens, it is unfortunate,” Bowlsby said. “We are going to look at it. There could be other implications that we need to take into consideration.”
i do what i can to eliminate missing scores/stats/rosters
feel free to follow me
dawgstyle
#25 Posted : Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:42:11 PM(UTC)

All American
Posts: 5,547
High Fives: 148
High Fived: 279
Joined: 11/3/2007(UTC)
iwishiwasaballer wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
smsnyder wrote:


Wait - didn't you accuse me of just reading from his bio? Would seem to me, you're the one who's taking a superficial glimpse and drawing conclusions. The Michigan bias is thinking you've got some great dirt on a MSU player when you don't since you are wrong both about his injury history and not understanding the rule.

"Davis enrolled at Michigan State in July of 2011 after tearing his ACL his senior year [of high school]"

source

Your quote pertains to the 5 year clock (ie getting a 6th year). That's a separate issue. 14.2.4 is the Hardship Waiver for regaining a year of eligibility.

"14.2.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference
or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as
an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions..."

I'm not sure what's with this fascination you have with the fact that the guy was able to do some work on scout teams or makes it so tough to understand the rules specifically apply to injuries during an athlete's senior year of high school. Language is very clear:

"The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any twoyear
or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior year
in high school; )"

This makes sense and is a good rule that helps protect the kids. (Probably one of the few rules that does). Rather than forcing them to try and rush into playing before they're fully healed or leave them high & dry when schools pull a scholarship due to an injury that late in their HS career, they're protected by not burning the year. For Davis, like anyone with a ACL reconstruction, he lost a minimum of 6-9 months. Playing on scout team in September doesn't mean he was cleared and able to participate when the team started practices in late summer. To be sure - in many cases, there's gray area in terms of what "inability to compete" is. If an athlete was injured and not cleared to play any of the regular season games, but is cleared 2 days before a bowl, does that mean it wasn't season-ending? What about last regular season game? Where is the line? I don't know. But to argue ACL shouldn't be considered season-ending is frankly, ridiculous. And the rules say, during their last year of HS counts - even if a guy is able to run around and contribute on scout teams.

But none of that is a redshirt. Sometimes it's referred to as a "medical redshirt" but that's not the appropriate term. A redshirt is when you don't play - it's the not playing part that preserves your year of eligibility. Once you play, that's no longer an option. If you have an "incapacity from injury or illness, that meets the criteria (<30% of games, prior to midpoint of the season, etc), you can apply to get the season back. It's administered through the conference (not the NCAA) so there may be some variation but the guidelines are clear. Maybe Michigan can just magically sit guys out without documentation, but Wisconsin sure as hell can't. For example, the process to get D'cota Dixon's year of eligibility back after missing most of his freshman year was just recently approved. And that was a torn labrum that required surgery. Here's the rule schools without a magic wand follow with regard to documentation:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request.


Ok, first thank you for linking that article. I don't know how I didn't see that one as I read dozens of sites about him that never mentioned that. I did however learn that Ed Davis was a fantastic high school golfer.

I didn't accuse you of reading just his bio, I said you only read about one year. I was wrong in that.

I won't get to far into the Ed Davis thing as it really wasn't the point of the discussion. I used him as an example not because of my"Michigan Bias" or because I think that I have some dirt on the MSU program. i used the example because it was fresh in my mind and had been discussed in great length in the Michigan sports community. The point of citing his scout team awards is that he was CLEARLY healthy enough to play and just did not. I'm not disputing that the rule is in place for a good reason, I am just saying that Ed Davis COULD have played his freshman year, regardless of his injury his Senior year. Since he COULD have played, he shouldn't have received a 6th year. Call that Michigan bias all you want, it wasn't exactly a minority opinion when it happened.

Now, but to the original discussion. Can a guy play in a game and get a redshirt. As I stated before you are just arguing semantics. You say it is sometimes referred to as a medical redshirt. No, it is almost UNIVERSALLY referred to as a medical redshirt. Those players that get it granted are considered redshirt(insert year here).

You used D'cota Dixon as an example. He has been at UW for 3 seasons. He has played in all 3 seasons. True or false, Dixon is regarded as a Redshirt Junior? But as you stated, he can't be a redshirt, because he played a snap in all 3 seasons.

Again, semantics or not, you can play 4 games, (assuming your team will make a bowl game) and still get a redshirt.

Lastly, the doctor thing. This is Division 1 college football. These programs are worth billions of dollars. If you don't think that they have doctors that are invested enough to create fake injuries for the sake of the players and the program to get them an additional year, you are lying to yourself. You don't have to have an injury that requires an MRI. Nothing in:

14.2.4.3.3 Medical Documentation. Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation,
from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes
the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with
any hardship-waiver request.

leads me to believe that a team doctor couldn't just write up reports saying that a player was working through an issue with a hamstring, which you can't provide any testing for, and get them granted a medical redshirt. This is no different than a trial where an attorney can provide a psychologist that says the defendant is legally insane. It is happening.



Just a question, did that rule amendment pass. Last I saw they were going to discuss it at a Spring or Summer meeting. - http://www.ncaa.com/news...-examined?sf94356491=1. Unless they're pretty loose with that waiver at this time

Using a season of competition


In the coming months, committee members will examine whether the rule determining when student-athletes have used a season of competition should be modified.

The current rule considers a student-athlete to have used a season of competition once he or she participates in competition, unless the student satisfies an exception or qualifies for a waiver.

A concept presented to the committee by the American Football Coaches Association suggests allowing a football student to compete in a limited number of football games throughout the season without using a season of competition.

The AFCA’s rationale for its recommendation is that each year some students exhaust a year of athletic eligibility by participating in a few games because of injuries sustained by others at their position. Those situations can be difficult for both the coach and the affected students.

“When that happens, it is unfortunate,” Bowlsby said. “We are going to look at it. There could be other implications that we need to take into consideration.”


So the rule you are talking about and what I am talking about are a little different. The new rule allowing you to play 4 games and redshirt without any explanation is likely to be voted on in January of 2018. It is not in place yet.

What I am talking about requires you to be "injured." The idea is that you could play your freshman in the early games, (usually cupakes) and get them exposure. After 4 games, you stop playing them and start documenting their injury that prevented them from playing. They can continue to practice, as there is 0 ability for the NCAA to monitor that, and in the case of Ed Davis, they apparently don't care anyway.

Medical redshirt is a highly abused practice, which is a part of why they have suggested this change.

@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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