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Thoughts on Green Bay
travis12
#26 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 12:41:10 PM(UTC)

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a fan wrote:
sportsfan wrote:
a fan wrote:
travis wrote:

The boys volleyball tournament is at a significantly smaller location than the girls tournament. Should they sue to get into the Resch Center?


I ask you to detail how many schools in the state even have boys VB and get back to me. Compare that to how many schools have girls basketball.

Did you really bring that up as a comparison ? Wow



But, all things being equal.....


My point is that on the boys and girls side, most schools in the state have both. That fact does not hold true for boys volleyball. It is a straw argument.

I don't see what the number of teams that the sport has in boys and girls has to do with anything, if everything must be equal. Since there are 1/3 the number of girls hockey teams as there are boys in Wisconsin, does that mean the games should be moved to a smaller rink even if the Alliant is available?
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gobirds
#27 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:53:03 PM(UTC)
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Turning away fans and the Resch not being big enough for the boys' tournament has been brought up numerous times.....so, playing devil's advocate:

Why would the WIAA take the Boys' Sectional Tournaments out of big facilities such as the Brown County Arena and move it to a high school gym?? BCA holds 6000 or so people and has been able to nearly sell out sectionals in the past. Can a high school gym in this state hold even 2000? I am guessing many fans were turned away from the De Pere-Germantown Sectional Final at Manitowoc H.S. this past season...why is that okay?

Just food for thought.
mvcbruce
#28 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:54:48 PM(UTC)
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Title IX does not come into play for Boys Hockey. (See compliance rules below) Only the "Institutions" underrepresented sex. That would be females at most (or all) schools. Boys sports do not (or any individual boys sport) does not meet the compliance obligation of a school.
In the 80's, Football was the main sport where disporportionatly more males played than females (still the same today). Thus it was the "institution" as a whole that was measure. There was a (a legal) push at one point to exempt football from counting the total number of athletes participating at a school. The Feds would have nothing to do with that. That is why some schools actually have a few more girls sports than boys sports . . . an attempt to bring total participation to near equality. In the 90's a few schools actually dropped some boys sports to equalize this issue. To me, this is a bad move . . . but here we are today . . . 40 years after Title IX came to be, and we still have issues.

One more thing, the WIAA could have asked the Feds for a waiver to do what they are doing. Did they? Does anyone know? Or will they do that "after the fact". This was not evident on the WIAA website.

Compliance can be assessed in any one of three ways:[18]
1.Providing athletic participation opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment. This prong of the test is satisfied when participation opportunities for men and women are "substantially proportionate" to their respective undergraduate enrollment.
2.Demonstrating a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution has a history and continuing practice of program expansion that is responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex (typically female).
3.Accommodating the interest and ability of underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution is meeting the interests and abilities of its female students even where there are disproportionately fewer females than males participating in sports.
"Champions aren't born, you have to build them"
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oldshep
#29 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:19:51 PM(UTC)
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mvcbruce wrote:
Title IX does not come into play for Boys Hockey. (See compliance rules below) Only the "Institutions" underrepresented sex. That would be females at most (or all) schools. Boys sports do not (or any individual boys sport) does not meet the compliance obligation of a school.
In the 80's, Football was the main sport where disporportionatly more males played than females (still the same today). Thus it was the "institution" as a whole that was measure. There was a (a legal) push at one point to exempt football from counting the total number of athletes participating at a school. The Feds would have nothing to do with that. That is why some schools actually have a few more girls sports than boys sports . . . an attempt to bring total participation to near equality. In the 90's a few schools actually dropped some boys sports to equalize this issue. To me, this is a bad move . . . but here we are today . . . 40 years after Title IX came to be, and we still have issues.

One more thing, the WIAA could have asked the Feds for a waiver to do what they are doing. Did they? Does anyone know? Or will they do that "after the fact". This was not evident on the WIAA website.

Compliance can be assessed in any one of three ways:[18]
1.Providing athletic participation opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment. This prong of the test is satisfied when participation opportunities for men and women are "substantially proportionate" to their respective undergraduate enrollment.
2.Demonstrating a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution has a history and continuing practice of program expansion that is responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex (typically female).
3.Accommodating the interest and ability of underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution is meeting the interests and abilities of its female students even where there are disproportionately fewer females than males participating in sports.


I guess I am a bit confused on how this would be a Title IX issue.

They are not playing in a lesser venue, in fact, they are playing in a newer venue that has all the same bells and whistles as the Kohl Center, with the lone exception being the seating capacity......which they never even came close to filling while at the Kohl Center.
Video Board....check,
State of the Art sound system.....check
Multiple modern locker rooms.....check


If you want to expand on things, the girls may actually be getting more out of the deal because they get whatever perks that the Packers are throwing in that the boys will not get and a custom made high school court fit for the venue.

Just because the cities are different doesn't mean the experience can not be similar.



afan1
#30 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:33:02 PM(UTC)

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If the state tournaments come to Green Bay, there are plans to upgrade the Resch Center scoreboard and provide a basketball floor with WIAA logos.

That above was from the GB paper after the initial proposal was made public.

For a two year contract for only the girls, are the above plans still in place ? From the GB editorial today, it seemed like it was based on a 5 year agreement for both girls and boys.


"The name All-Northwest itself means something to readers of the Leader-Telegram." ?????????

It is the "ALL LEADER AREA" team, pure and simple.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

"It's déjà vu all over again" Yogi B.
mvcbruce
#31 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:34:34 PM(UTC)
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oooooh... here is the conundrum.
So, if girls move to Green Bay for two years and then must move back to the Kohl Center (or a lesser venue as you put it), they are then facing a Title IX issue. So, if not now . . . then in 2 years the issue arises.
"Champions aren't born, you have to build them"
crusaderpride
#32 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:40:34 PM(UTC)

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Indiana had its boys finals this year at Bankers Life Fieldhouse, an NBA arena that seats 18k. The girls had their finals at Indiana State's Hulman Center, which seats 10k.

Kentucky had its boys finals at Rupp Arena, home of UK, seating 23K. The girls played at WKU, whose gym has a capacity of 7500 or so.

It's a non issue, and is honestly laughable.
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oldshep
#33 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:41:06 PM(UTC)
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mvcbruce wrote:
oooooh... here is the conundrum.
So, if girls move to Green Bay for two years and then must move back to the Kohl Center (or a lesser venue as you put it), they are then facing a Title IX issue. So, if not now . . . then in 2 years the issue arises.



Please point out where someone called the Kohl Center a lesser venue?

Please point out where someone called the Resch Center a lesser venue?

The Kohl is bigger.

The Resch is newer.

They both have video scoreboards.

They both have multiple modern locker rooms.

They both have nice sound systems.

The Resch is going to team with the Packers to provide something for the experience.

The Kohl Center is home of the Badgers.

Neither is a lesser venue, the are both quality modern arenas that will offer unique but similar experiences. The main difference in the two is the seating capacity.

The girls never come close to filling the Kohl Center so the Resch will provide more than enough seating. Multiple boys sessions exceeded the attendance capacity of the Resch so the WIAA would be turning people away if they placed the boys there.

Do not mistake different for lesser or unequal.
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crusaderpride
#34 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 3:06:15 PM(UTC)

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Here's the lawsuit you have been referencing, a fan:
http://bassford.com/news...srelease-022704-mrw.pdf

Some important things to note:
1) The motion was denied. I don't deny that someone could definitely raise a stink about this decision, if they chose to do so. However, that's true of just about everything. What matters is whether they would be met with success. That seems extremely unlikely.

2) The court said that the most persuasive argument made by the plaintiffs (who still lost) was that by holding the tournament at the U of M arena, some spectators would be turned away. I don't know that anyone can credibly make that case about holding the girls at the Resch.
afan1
#35 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 3:29:00 PM(UTC)

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crusaderpride wrote:
Here's the lawsuit you have been referencing, a fan:
http://bassford.com/news...srelease-022704-mrw.pdf

Some important things to note:
1) The motion was denied. I don't deny that someone could definitely raise a stink about this decision, if they chose to do so. However, that's true of just about everything. What matters is whether they would be met with success. That seems extremely unlikely.

2) The court said that the most persuasive argument made by the plaintiffs (who still lost) was that by holding the tournament at the U of M arena, some spectators would be turned away. I don't know that anyone can credibly make that case about holding the girls at the Resch.


Thanks, that was kind of cool to read. The injunction was denied but they "DID" moved it to Excel. They now play at the same arena and bet they do not fill 1/4 of the seats, but they play there. Plaintiffs said the Ridder arena was only slightly more desirable than playing on an outdoor rink, yet they held the NCAA d1 frozen four there. Talk about blowing smoke.  I guess we will just have to see if it is brought up. I am just saying that it could and I would not be totally surprised.

Notice the judge ? I think he was the same judge for the NFL /Williams wall case. Good old Judge Magnuson.
"The name All-Northwest itself means something to readers of the Leader-Telegram." ?????????

It is the "ALL LEADER AREA" team, pure and simple.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

"It's déjà vu all over again" Yogi B.
bne55
#36 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 3:52:33 PM(UTC)

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Michigan plays its Boys & Girls games at MSU's Breslin Center 14,800 capacity, yet a Basketball Only Venue. Minnesota holds all championships, 4A Quarterfinals & semifinals at the Target Center 19,000 & the Quarterfinal games at the Williams arena of the University of Minnesota 14,000. 3rd place games played at Concordia. As I mentioned numerous South Dakota goes all over & I absolutely hate their Basketball Tournament set up different venue each gender & class & each year. so now people mention this is how other states do it separate its ok for Wisconsin to do the same. Well I don't like the Idea of them being separate They need to be together. One will be able to see the difference that experienced the Kohl & the Resch in Green Bay. A special floor just for the girls ok cool they get their own floor but again no tradition with that floor. I don't like how people say well the Stadium District has plenty to offer or The Packers. Well when I think of all that Football comes right to my mind & all those places seem more associated with football more then anything or Theirs Bay Park Square, please there are better malls then Bay Park Square one reason why everyone goes to Appleton. Like mentioned in some readings I been reading the traditions in Madison will be hard to replace.
New London Girls Basketball
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Big Hearts from a Small Town!
I refuse to say the Road to the Resch or Green Bay, Girls Belong back in Madison.
mickjagger
#37 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:08:13 PM(UTC)

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a fan wrote:
If the state tournaments come to Green Bay, there are plans to upgrade the Resch Center scoreboard and provide a basketball floor with WIAA logos.

That above was from the GB paper after the initial proposal was made public.

For a two year contract for only the girls, are the above plans still in place ? From the GB editorial today, it seemed like it was based on a 5 year agreement for both girls and boys.

PMI, the entertainment company that operates the Resch Center & the Lambeau Field Stadium District Board announced today that some of the spiffs & amenities which were part of the original proposal to host both the boys & girls state tournaments for a minimum of 5 years are no longer in play. The new scoreboard & playing floor are no longer guaranteed, although the door was left open for one or both to still become reality. The $50,000 incentive and parking & hotel discounts are still in place.

http://www.wbay.com/stor...tails-to-be-hammered-out
db11
#38 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:11:46 PM(UTC)

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Tradition can be overrated.

Case in point, no one has much of an issue with the State games not being at the charming ol' Fieldhouse anymore, do they?

And Title IX? As someone said above, it's laughable that that is even brought up...unless, I'm misreading this and the WIAA has actually stopped sponsoring girls' basketball!?!? Which I don't think is the case...
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oldshep
#39 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:55:42 PM(UTC)
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BNE55 wrote:
Michigan plays its Boys & Girls games at MSU's Breslin Center 14,800 capacity, yet a Basketball Only Venue. Minnesota holds all championships, 4A Quarterfinals & semifinals at the Target Center 19,000 & the Quarterfinal games at the Williams arena of the University of Minnesota 14,000. 3rd place games played at Concordia. As I mentioned numerous South Dakota goes all over & I absolutely hate their Basketball Tournament set up different venue each gender & class & each year. so now people mention this is how other states do it separate its ok for Wisconsin to do the same. Well I don't like the Idea of them being separate They need to be together. One will be able to see the difference that experienced the Kohl & the Resch in Green Bay. A special floor just for the girls ok cool they get their own floor but again no tradition with that floor. I don't like how people say well the Stadium District has plenty to offer or The Packers. Well when I think of all that Football comes right to my mind & all those places seem more associated with football more then anything or Theirs Bay Park Square, please there are better malls then Bay Park Square one reason why everyone goes to Appleton. Like mentioned in some readings I been reading the traditions in Madison will be hard to replace.



When you speak of traditions in Madison, are you complaining about fans not being able to go down to State St, or the long two year history the girls have in the Kohl Center?

Fact- there is no tradition in the Kohl Center for the girls. It has bounced all over the place. Perhaps the Resch Center will be the place where the girls will be able to establish their own tradition.

I really love how some people take a "sky is falling" approach to this when it probably will work out just fine. As I said earlier, some people love to complain just to complain.



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bne55
#40 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:29:42 PM(UTC)

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The Girls played a total of 7 Seasons at the Kohl Center 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005,2010, 2011 & 2012. thats way more then 2 years you speak of. 5 years at the AEC & then the Fieldhouse Years. Minus the Fieldhouse Years its spent the most time at the Kohl Center.
New London Girls Basketball
Back 2 Back D2 State Champions
2011 25-3 2012 28-0
Big Hearts from a Small Town!
I refuse to say the Road to the Resch or Green Bay, Girls Belong back in Madison.
oldshep
#41 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:45:51 PM(UTC)
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BNE55 wrote:
The Girls played a total of 7 Seasons at the Kohl Center 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005,2010, 2011 & 2012. thats way more then 2 years you speak of. 5 years at the AEC & then the Fieldhouse Years. Minus the Fieldhouse Years its spent the most time at the Kohl Center.


I apologize.....the last three years.....

So the girls tourney has been around since 1976 and they have had 7 non consecutive years in the Kohl Center.....

Oh the tradition they have built

It will be so difficult to leave a place after all the memories built over the last three years...
bne55
#42 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:09:29 PM(UTC)

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oldshep wrote:
BNE55 wrote:
The Girls played a total of 7 Seasons at the Kohl Center 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005,2010, 2011 & 2012. thats way more then 2 years you speak of. 5 years at the AEC & then the Fieldhouse Years. Minus the Fieldhouse Years its spent the most time at the Kohl Center.


I apologize.....the last three years.....

So the girls tourney has been around since 1976 and they have had 7 non consecutive years in the Kohl Center.....

Oh the tradition they have built

It will be so difficult to leave a place after all the memories built over the last three years...


Its Difficult to begin anything with since the WIAA keeps moving it. They made the right move to get it at the Kohl Center & don't quote me on this I remember one of the WIAA Officials saying something that they found the right place for it & its what the people wanted during a halftime of a state game.
New London Girls Basketball
Back 2 Back D2 State Champions
2011 25-3 2012 28-0
Big Hearts from a Small Town!
I refuse to say the Road to the Resch or Green Bay, Girls Belong back in Madison.
oldshep
#43 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 5:53:59 AM(UTC)
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BNE55 wrote:
oldshep wrote:
BNE55 wrote:
The Girls played a total of 7 Seasons at the Kohl Center 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005,2010, 2011 & 2012. thats way more then 2 years you speak of. 5 years at the AEC & then the Fieldhouse Years. Minus the Fieldhouse Years its spent the most time at the Kohl Center.


I apologize.....the last three years.....

So the girls tourney has been around since 1976 and they have had 7 non consecutive years in the Kohl Center.....

Oh the tradition they have built

It will be so difficult to leave a place after all the memories built over the last three years...


Its Difficult to begin anything with since the WIAA keeps moving it. They made the right move to get it at the Kohl Center & don't quote me on this I remember one of the WIAA Officials saying something that they found the right place for it & its what the people wanted during a halftime of a state game.


The issue you seem to be forgetting is that the Kohl Center is not available for key weekends in March. Someone had to move. The boys have more of a tradition in Madison than the girls. The boys draw more so they need the bigger facility. The girls are getting an excellent facility to play in.
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icons
#44 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 5:57:35 AM(UTC)
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Green Bay is able to host NFC Championship games, but unable deal with a high school game?

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gopack1
#45 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:14:11 AM(UTC)
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ICONS wrote:
Green Bay is able to host NFC Championship games, but unable deal with a high school game?



That and Green Bay worked with the NFL to host a Kickoff party that had nearly 150,000 people attend? Green Bay can handle the Girls' State Tournament.

For those skeptical about the move, Green Bay will treat this event like royalty. My understanding is they're going to free up either the Shopko Hall or Brown County Arena next door to create some sort of "basketball experience" fans.

Other venues not mentioned to check out nearby the Resch Center:

Curly's Pub
Green Bay Distillery
Tundra Lodge
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bne55
#46 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:24:17 AM(UTC)

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Ok just because the Packers get good turnouts means Basketball will? Everyone thinks Bringing the Packers into this is the magic answer to everything & so great. The Packers have a way bigger fan base then High School Basketball of course hundreds of thousands come to Green Bay for the Packers everyone knows that.
New London Girls Basketball
Back 2 Back D2 State Champions
2011 25-3 2012 28-0
Big Hearts from a Small Town!
I refuse to say the Road to the Resch or Green Bay, Girls Belong back in Madison.
sportsfan1005
#47 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:29:47 AM(UTC)
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All for the move.

A Blog on the issue at http://espn1005.com/archives/12237
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oldshep
#48 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:51:39 AM(UTC)
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BNE55 wrote:
Ok just because the Packers get good turnouts means Basketball will? Everyone thinks Bringing the Packers into this is the magic answer to everything & so great. The Packers have a way bigger fan base then High School Basketball of course hundreds of thousands come to Green Bay for the Packers everyone knows that.



Please do not put words into anyone's mouth or misrepresent their positions.

No one said "The Packers get good turnouts so basketball will."

People are stating, in reply to people who act like Green Bay will not have the "extras" for the fans, that Green Bay hosts more people for Packer weekends then the WIAA girls tournament brings in. Therefore, they will have plenty of hotels, bars, restaurants for those people.

Why are you/people with similar opinions as you, grasping for any reason to hate this move?

First it was a Title IX issue, which travis did a great job debunking as a myth.

Then it was a tradition issue, tough too argue tradition when it has been so many places over the last few years.

Why not be open minded and look at it for what it really is, a good compromise given the circumstances and a chance for the girls tournament to establish itself in an area that has proven to be a hot bed for girls/women's hoops. It is an area that is embracing this opportunity. Why are you so quick to bash it?

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formerscribe
#49 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:58:28 AM(UTC)
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My guess is this: The Board opted for a two-year run in Green Bay in part because if no lawsuit pops up in that time, the move may become permanent.

It's real easy to see how the fans and participants of girls basketball in this state can feel slighted by this move when one considers the following; why didn't the Board opt to alternate years with boys in Madison and girls in Green Bay in 2013 and the opposite in 2014; and when they are subjected to statements made on this board that in essence state Madison played host to the girls tournament only because it had to.

I realize the boys tournament can draw more fans than the Resch Center can hold, so that point on face value is moot. However, it's been proven time and again in recent months that nothing is guaranteed when it comes to the courts at any level. Just look how two judges struck down the voter ID law and how a certain state Supreme Court Justice is maneuvering to eliminate any chance of being sanctioned by his peers.

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mickjagger
#50 Posted : Thursday, April 26, 2012 5:15:37 PM(UTC)

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formerscribe wrote:
My guess is this: The Board opted for a two-year run in Green Bay in part because if no lawsuit pops up in that time, the move may become permanent.

I suspect another reason for only a 2-yr commitment by the WIAA could be the strong possibility that the Kohl Center availability factor, which was the driving force behind the move of the girls' state tourney move to Green Bay, may resolve itself as the Badgers' Mens Hockey conference playoffs may move from on-campus sites to an all-encompassing neutral site. This move most likely would free up another weekend at the Kohl Center in March, presumably allowing the Girls' State Basketball Tourney to return to the KC. Of course the possibility also exists that the 2-yr "trial-run" at the Resch Center in Green Bay proves to be so successful & enticing that the WIAA never looks back.
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