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riseagainst wrote:quinnster10 wrote:riseagainst wrote:quinnster10 wrote:riseagainst wrote:bhsblackhawks wrote:The Bulls had a darn good team, even without Jordan. And they had capable management. Lebron had a team that was a bunch of scrubs and washed up players, and he had management that were completely incapable of doing anything productive for that team. Knock Lebron all you want for taking the easy way out, but Lebron and Jordan were in completely different circumstances. Lebron's current situation is much closer to Jordan's than Lebron's situation in Cleveland was. It's no doubt that as Jordan progressed, his team around him got better, and turned into a very good team w/o him. But Jordan's best supporting cast couldn't hold a candle to this Heat team, period. Even without Lebron this Miami team is likely a championship caliber team in today's NBA (it's funny how a BIG piece of Boston's "Big 3", Ray Allen (who hasn't lost much of a step), is just another role player on the monopoly that is the Miami Heat). The East is so terrible it's not even funny, so you can pencil in Miami out of the East even w/o Lebron. Hell, even without Lebron, Wade, AND Bosh, Miami is still probably a 4-6 seed and possibly even gets to the East Semi's. So you have an NBA finals caliber team that only has to get through 1 Western Conference opponent to win the championship, then you throw in Lebron, who is the best player in the game today. Gee, that should be tough to win titles... Holy crap is that laughable. If you think a starting lineup of Mario Chalmers, Mike MIller, Shane Battier, Udonis Haslem, and Chris Anderson with a bench of Norris Cole, Ray Allen, Joel Anthony, Rashard Lewis, and James Jones is winning more than 35 games let alone win 44-49 games, there really isn't any need to have any more basketball related discussions with you. http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278818
No Lebron, no Wade. Heat victory against arguably the best team in the West ON THE ROAD when the Spurs are still playing for the #1 seed. Is that still laughable, Quinn? Face it, with or without Lebron, the Heat are a championship level team. You want to take a 1 game sample and think that justifies your argument? The Heat also had Chris Bosh playing that night, you stated without Bosh, Wade, and LeBron they would be a 4-6 seed in the East, so yes still laughable. Also the Knicks, Clippers, Phoenix, Portland (by 30), and Twolves all went into San Antonio this year and won, I guess they're all championship contenders as well. None of this disputes the fact that Miami is still a championship level team, with or without Lebron. Let me ask you this. If Lebron tore his acl 2 months ago, would Miami have lost to the Bucks?....Would Miami have lost to the Bulls?....Would Miami lose to the Knicks or Pacers?.... Can you answer 'Yes' to any of those questions and keep a straight face?.... They would have beaten the Bucks in this hypothetical situation. The decimated Bulls would have beaten Miami for sure, especially with a 70% Dwade as Jimmy Butler would have taken Wade out of the game. Noah and Bosh would play to a wash. Think about it in terms of points, the Bulls averaged 84.2 ppg for the series. The Heat would obviously be much worse defensively without LeBron, so I assume the Bulls would be able to average 90 ppg without LeBron playing. Let's say between Bosh and Wade(at 70% health) that they average 35 ppg combined for the series and that might be generous. That means a combination of Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Chalmers, Cole, Haslem, Anderson, and Mike Miller would have to average 56 points a game to beat the Bulls. I wouldn't bet on that happening 4 out of 7 games against the Bulls.
LeBron James = Champion |
riseagainst wrote:quinnster10 wrote:riseagainst wrote:bhsblackhawks wrote:The Bulls had a darn good team, even without Jordan. And they had capable management. Lebron had a team that was a bunch of scrubs and washed up players, and he had management that were completely incapable of doing anything productive for that team. Knock Lebron all you want for taking the easy way out, but Lebron and Jordan were in completely different circumstances. Lebron's current situation is much closer to Jordan's than Lebron's situation in Cleveland was. It's no doubt that as Jordan progressed, his team around him got better, and turned into a very good team w/o him. But Jordan's best supporting cast couldn't hold a candle to this Heat team, period. Even without Lebron this Miami team is likely a championship caliber team in today's NBA (it's funny how a BIG piece of Boston's "Big 3", Ray Allen (who hasn't lost much of a step), is just another role player on the monopoly that is the Miami Heat). The East is so terrible it's not even funny, so you can pencil in Miami out of the East even w/o Lebron. Hell, even without Lebron, Wade, AND Bosh, Miami is still probably a 4-6 seed and possibly even gets to the East Semi's. So you have an NBA finals caliber team that only has to get through 1 Western Conference opponent to win the championship, then you throw in Lebron, who is the best player in the game today. Gee, that should be tough to win titles... Holy crap is that laughable. If you think a starting lineup of Mario Chalmers, Mike MIller, Shane Battier, Udonis Haslem, and Chris Anderson with a bench of Norris Cole, Ray Allen, Joel Anthony, Rashard Lewis, and James Jones is winning more than 35 games let alone win 44-49 games, there really isn't any need to have any more basketball related discussions with you. http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278818
No Lebron, no Wade. Heat victory against arguably the best team in the West ON THE ROAD when the Spurs are still playing for the #1 seed. Is that still laughable, Quinn? Face it, with or without Lebron, the Heat are a championship level team. You want to take a 1 game sample and think that justifies your argument? The Heat also had Chris Bosh playing that night, you stated without Bosh, Wade, and LeBron they would be a 4-6 seed in the East, so yes still laughable. Also the Knicks, Clippers, Phoenix, Portland (by 30), and Twolves all went into San Antonio this year and won, I guess they're all championship contenders as well.
LeBron James = Champion |
icons wrote:Winters, Bridgeman, and Myers? They were the nucleus of some pretty damn good Bucks teams.
Not exactly a horrible trade considering Alcindor wanted out of Milwaukee.
But, had Lebron stayed in Cleveland, he would still be an underachiever. It is what it is. Anytime you go from Championship contender to fringe playoff qualifier, it will never be considered a good trade. In the 5 years after this trade, the team went a combined 199-211 (48.5%) with only 2 winning seasons, qualified for the playoffs 3 years with a 1st round loss, and 2 semi-final losses. Considering 2 components of that trade were gone (Elmore Smith stayed 1 year and Dave Meyers retired in 1980). Winters most productive years were during that 5 year time frame as he retired in 1983 as his game declined. Bridgeman was pretty solid throughout his Bucks career. Considering the Bucks made only 2 ECF's during Bridgeman's time frame and lost both times 4-1, this trade wasn't good, as they should've gotten more from LA giving up a player that was averaging 30 ppg, 15 rpg, 4.5 apg, and 3.5 bpg and in the prime of his career.
LeBron James = Champion |
thebillwaltontrip wrote:Not exactly sure where you are going with the whoel Kukoc/Harper thing...Chicago had already won three championships under Jordan's direction before either had played a game with the club.
As for the rest of your argument about guys willingly going places to form super teams in modern NBA history...
1980s Lakers: Magic Johnson and James Worthy were drafted by the club straight out of college and Byron Scott was traded for after being drafted by the Clippers on draft night. Kareem was acquired in a trade, that was it.
1980s Celtics: Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, and Danny Ainge were all drafted by the club while Robert Parrish and Dennis Johnson were acquired in trades.
We've pretty well covered the Bulls teams of Jordan's era.
2000s Lakers: Shaq signed as a free agent during the off-season in which they traded for Kobe Bryant on draft night, and they also acquired Derek Fisher in the draft. Their two key role players during their three peat, Rick Fox and Robert Horry, were acquired in trades and were solid players but far from superstars. During the latter half of their run, role players on their title teams like Andrew Bynum, Jordan Farmar, and Sasha Vujacic were all guys drafted by the team. Other guys like Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol were acquired in trades in which the team gave up Shaquille O'Neal while he was still a solid contributor in the Odom deal and the draft rights to Marc Gasol, who was a promising up & coming big man at the time who has since blossomed into an elite level NBA big man.
2000s Spurs: The three anchors of their team that have helped them to three championships since the 2002-2003 season; Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili, all drafted by the team.
Of those five dynasty caliber teams of the past 30 years, I fail to see where two All-NBA level players, let alone THREE, willingly collaborated to sign with those respective teams to form the subsequent dynasties that would ensue. I believe it is you who are the one who could use a lesson in NBA history.
The 1980's Lakers had it really difficult drafting Magic #1 overall in 1979. Then thanks to the horrible trade to obtain Cleveland's first round draft pick in 1982 they drafted James Worthy #1 overall.. Then came the horrible trade by the Bucks to practically give away Kareem to the Lakers. The 1980's Celtics also had it very difficult by drafting Bird, who was obviously a can't miss. Robert Parrish was acquired in one of the worst trades of all time, that also netted the Celtics McHale with the 3rd overall pick. You want to give those great Celtic/Lakers teams a ton of credit because they were dealing with people that shouldn't have been allowed to even be in the league, let alone negotiate trades, that allowed both of the 80's teams to become dynasties. Yet discredit LeBron/Bosh/Wade for coming together because they didn't have the luxury of multiple top 5 draft picks and/or making ridiculous trades for future HOFer's in their prime? You conveniently forget to mention for the 2000's Lakers that Kobe made the Lakers trade Shaq, Kobe failed for multiple years realizing that he couldn't win without at least 1 other superstar and demanded that he be traded or they make a trade and bring in another all-star. That happened to be the future HOFer Pau Gasol in his prime. Including Dwight Howard, Kobe has now played with 3 HOFers in their prime and a HOF coach who has won 11 NBA titles.. Can you please tell me how many future HOFer's in their respective prime, has Wade/Bosh/LeBron played with prior to them colluding? Can you also please tell me how many trades Toronto/Cleveland/Miami pulled off that netted anything close to the production Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom gave the Lakers? I really hope you don't say Shaq to the Heat, he had 2 solid years of production but year 2 he missed 23 games with injury, year 3 he missed 42, and year 4 was traded mid season to the Suns. After Cleveland selected LeBron #1 overall in 2003, Cleveland's first round draft picks were as follows: 2004-10th (Luke Jackson, out of the league by 2009), 2005-No 1st round pick, 2006-25th pick (Shannon Brown), 2007-No 1st round pick, 2008-19th pick (JJ Hickson), and 2009-30th pick (Christian Eyenga). They understood what NBA history showed them in terms of winning multiple championships and Cleveland/Toronto showed LeBron/Bosh that they were incapable of providing them with that kind of support, so they took it upon themselves to get it done. As I outlined above, this team is hardly loaded after the big 3 and with Wade at 70%-75% for the 2nd straight postseason, it's become the big 2.5. Obviously having the games greatest player by a fairly large margin, can overshadow the fact that Dwade can't stay healthy in the postseason. The LeBron haters will continue to hold onto any reason they can to keep hating the guy, but at least recognize that we're seeing a top 15-20 player of all time (will continue to climb if he wins more championships), at the top of his game dominating the NBA, collusion or not.
LeBron James = Champion |
thebillwaltontrip wrote:Their numbers the season before they joined forces
LeBron James:
29.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG
Dwyane Wade:
26.6 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.8 SPG, 1.1 BPG
Chris Bosh:
24.0 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 2.4 APG, 0.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG
Spin it and try to revise history all you want. The facts speak for themselves. LeBron James was a perennial loser and failure in Cleveland who choked in the playoffs year after year. Chris Bosh was a perennial loser in Toronto who couldn't even manage to make them a consistent playoff team in the toilet bowl that was the Eastern Conference. And even Wade was finding the sledding tough in the wake of the honeymoon of the Shaq era ending and the spotlight being solely on him in Miami.
These were three guys looking for the easy way, found it, and took it.
These guys WILLINGLY joined forces...WILLINGLY...what part about that does your numbskull mind not comprehend? These guys got on the phone together, all agreed to sign with the same team together and for less than max contract value if need be, WITH THE INTENTION of building a super team.
The guys in the past eras that you brought up did not do that. These teams happened to be constructed by chance...built through the draft and trades that put the necessary pieces together and around their cornerstone players.
James and Bosh showed the world that even they themselves felt that they were not that kind of cornerstone player that you could build and improve around year after year when they decided to take the easy way out. They can admit they were losers, why can't you? Please show me where I stated they didn't willingly join forces? I've never argued that fact, but apparently your reading comprehension skills are similar to your knowledge of the game of basketball, very poor. You can continue to credit players who played for extremely successful organizations, with incredibly intelligent front office personnel, who did the necessary things to make their team championship contenders. You do this while discrediting the players that weren't as fortunate and were stuck with an inept front office, below average to slightly above average talent, with average at best coaching. As everyone else has stated, the players in the past willingly signed with their respective teams, guys like Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper willingly signed with the Bulls. Kobe willingly demanded the Lakers trade for a future HOFer in Pau Gasol as he continued to "fail" with the players they had at the time. Kobe willingly recruited Dwight Howard and made the request to trade for Steve Nash, because he couldn't win with the talent around him. The list goes on and on as others have pointed out about guys who willingly signed to a team or demanded a trade to a contending team. Anybody that understands the history of the NBA can see this.
LeBron James = Champion |
thebillwaltontrip wrote:Outside of Jordan, the Bulls teams that strung together their first three peat were not that stacked. They had a young Pippen who was just starting to blossom into an elite level NBA player but that was it. Guys like Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, King, Hodges, and King were the same kind of gritty role players that LeBron had around him in Cleveland. What? Pippen was in the prime of his career when the 1st 3 peat happened as he was coming off a 16.5 ppg, 7 rpg, and 5 apg all star season the year before. He only got better from that point. There is no comparison to what Jordan played with compared to LeBron played with in Cleveland. You can barely make that comparison now considering Jordan played with an in his prime HOFer Scottie Pippen for 9 years, and it looks like LeBron got Dwade for about 2 years before his body appears to be breaking down. Horace Grant gave the Bulls pretty much what Bosh is giving the Heat right now, except a little less scoring, better defense, and better rebounding. To try to make the case that Jordan had Pippen and nobody else during the 1st 3 peat is pretty ridiculous. BJ Armstrong would've been the best bench player LeBron ever played with in Cleveland. If LeBron had any in his prime HOFer on his team during his 7 year tenure in Cleveland, it's clear he would've won at least 1 championship by now. Some of you probably don't know much about the history of the NBA which is understandable, but if feel the Heat monopolized the talent of the NBA, feel free to look at the Boston/Lakers teams of the 60's and 80's. Teams loaded with multiple HOFer's that won multiple championships, and were coached by HOF coaches. Lets look at the Heat roster as it's currently constructed: Dwyane Wade - 31 years old, 2nd straight postseason his knees are giving out, is on the downside of his career. LeBron James - Obviously the best player in the game and continues to get better. Chris Bosh - Borderline HOFer simply for the numbers he put up in Toronto. He was your classic great stats on a bad-average team. Still an all-star caliber player with the Heat, but not a top 15 player in the NBA today. Udonis Haslem - 32 years old and is not a starting PF at this point in his career, only plays about 18-19 mpg. Mario Chalmers - 26 years old, can be solid at times and also makes a lot of boneheaded mistakes. Appears to be in the process of losing his starting position to Norris Cole. Norris Cole - 24 years old, and starting to play really well. Looks to be taking over the starting PG position. Shane Battier - 34 years old and on the downside of his career. Still a solid defender but not great. Has talked about retiring when his contract is up after next year. Chris Andersen - 34 years old and is the energy guy off the bench. Plays about 15 minutes a game. Ray Allen - 37 years old and probably has 2 years left of basketball in him. He is atrocious defensively and can give about 25 minutes a night at his current stage in his career. Obviously still a very good 3 point shooter. Mike Miller - 33 years old and a shell of his former self. Incredibly injury prone, he thought about retiring after last season and reportedly will think about it again this offseason. Rashard Lewis - 33 years old and completely washed up. James Jones - 32 years old and completely washed up. Thought about retiring last year and probably will after this season. Joel Anthony - 30 years old and can't crack the rotation because he is so offensively challenged. Jarvis Varnado - 25 years old and never plays. Juwan Howard - 40 years old, doesn't suit up for games, simply there because of his experience and professionalism. As I previously stated, this is the 2nd straight postseason that Dwade has been 70-75% health. This roster only works because of the greatness that is LeBron James. As I've said before, Pat Riley has done at average job at constructing this roster. You've seen Shane Battier shoot very poorly so far this postseason (26%) and Ray Allen not be as efficient as he was in the post season. Even with the aging roster and Dwade being injured, the Heat are still the best team in the East and should make the finals for a 3rd straight year, but to think this entire roster is loaded and the Heat should just run through everybody is simply incorrect.
LeBron James = Champion |
riseagainst wrote:bhsblackhawks wrote:The Bulls had a darn good team, even without Jordan. And they had capable management. Lebron had a team that was a bunch of scrubs and washed up players, and he had management that were completely incapable of doing anything productive for that team. Knock Lebron all you want for taking the easy way out, but Lebron and Jordan were in completely different circumstances. Lebron's current situation is much closer to Jordan's than Lebron's situation in Cleveland was. It's no doubt that as Jordan progressed, his team around him got better, and turned into a very good team w/o him. But Jordan's best supporting cast couldn't hold a candle to this Heat team, period. Even without Lebron this Miami team is likely a championship caliber team in today's NBA (it's funny how a BIG piece of Boston's "Big 3", Ray Allen (who hasn't lost much of a step), is just another role player on the monopoly that is the Miami Heat). The East is so terrible it's not even funny, so you can pencil in Miami out of the East even w/o Lebron. Hell, even without Lebron, Wade, AND Bosh, Miami is still probably a 4-6 seed and possibly even gets to the East Semi's. So you have an NBA finals caliber team that only has to get through 1 Western Conference opponent to win the championship, then you throw in Lebron, who is the best player in the game today. Gee, that should be tough to win titles... Holy crap is that laughable. If you think a starting lineup of Mario Chalmers, Mike MIller, Shane Battier, Udonis Haslem, and Chris Anderson with a bench of Norris Cole, Ray Allen, Joel Anthony, Rashard Lewis, and James Jones is winning more than 35 games let alone win 44-49 games, there really isn't any need to have any more basketball related discussions with you.
LeBron James = Champion |
dkelly28 wrote:db11 wrote:Count me as one person who actually thinks the post-Carell Office has still been pretty good...with the one exception being the complete overuse of Andy Bernard. I like Ed Helms, but the creators' decision to make that character a main focus of the show was a bad one. They ruined the Andy Bernard character by far after Steve left. Agreed, I was actually glad when he went on his boat trip.
LeBron James = Champion |
I'm baffled by how anyone can think Memphis will "destroy" the Heat. They just played in a series with OKC with every game being decided by 6 points or less. That was with Kevin Durant not being nearly as efficient as he normally is, playing Derek Fisher 25-27 minutes a game, playing the offensively challenged Kendrick Perkins 17-20 minutes a game, playing the offensively challenged Thabo Sefolosha 27 mpg, and obviously without Westbrook. The more and more I think about this potential matchup, I think the Heat win in 5.
LeBron James = Champion |
riseagainst wrote:I'd say 5% chance they don't win it...and that's being generous. 4 losses in 7 games just isn't possible for the Heat, unless 2011 NBA finals lebron shows up (or doesn't show up I should say)...
Lebron bugs me too, for many reasons. Mainly because he continues to be compared to Jordan when in reality has no business being put in the same sentence as Jordan AT THIS POINT in his career. When you compare what the 2 have accomplished (both individually and with their teams), there is no comparison. He's 1-3 in finals with a complete choke job in 2011, that to me already ends the conversation as Jordan never, ever disappeared in an NBA finals. Plus, Lebron only started becoming really elite and taking his game to another level over the last 2.5 years or so with his run in Miami. IF Lebron continues to do what he's doing for the next 3-4 years and wins 3-4 championships and continues at the level that he's at, then sure I think the conversation is warranted. But right now? Give me a break.
Also, the way the whole Miami thing went down was extremely weak IMO, with the best player in the game deciding to collude with two other future NBA hall of famers and monopolizing the NBA market to win championships. Lebron has gone on record several times as saying that the league's talent level has been watered down in recent history, and I agree with him. So OK Lebron, since the league is watered down, why did you feel the need to join up with 2 other NBA all stars (and a damn good supporting cast) in order to win championships? Was that really necessary? I realize Lebron can't control what moves Miami's front office makes, which have been stellar by adding the likes of Chris Anderson, Ray Allen, etc. which has made this team virtually unbeatable, but "the decision" has just seemed like a cop out by Lebron from the start.
Just my 2 cents. Stellar? Hardly, the front office has actually done just an average job at best by constructing this roster. They gave Mike Miller a 5 year, $29 million deal in 2010 although it was clear he was on the backside of his career and has been injury prone throughout, which has obviously continued with Miami. After this year, he still has $13 million coming to him over the next 2 years. He is a prime candidate to be amnestied this offseason. They gave Joel Anthony a 5 year, $18 million deal and he can't even crack the rotation now because he is so offensively challenged. He is still on the books for $7.6 million over the next 2 years. Rashard Lewis and James Jones are completely washed up, but are owed $1.4 and $1.5 million next year. Battier, Allen, Anderson, and drafting Cole were all really solid moves, but they have far to much money invested in players that are on the decline and/or completely washed up. On top of that, they're an extremely old team with an average age of 30.57 years, and that's not even factoring in Juwan Howard. For the 2014-15 season the Heat will be back to being a top 5 lottery team as I believe Bosh, LeBron, and Wade will all opt out and move on. Heat owner Mickey Arison has already come out and stated the team lost money this last season and will continue to lose money with 3 superstars on it because of the harsh luxury tax penalties now in place. In 2 years Wade will be relegated to 3rd or 4th fiddle and that's if he can stay healthy for a full season, which his body appears to be breaking down now. LeBron will be 30 years old to begin the 2014-15 season and will have 3-4 years left in his prime to try to win a few more championships, so with the uncertainty surrounding Wade's health, I can't imagine him resigning with Miami. As far as the Jordan comparisons go, it's pretty tough to hold that against LeBron considering his game is nothing like MJ's. The media/talking heads always try to make the comparisons to former greats, it's just what happens nowadays. LeBron was incredibly arrogant coming out of high school with the "King" moniker or the "Chosen One" crap, and then the awful "Decision." He has collapsed twice in playoffs against the Celtics and Mavericks. Interestingly enough, he probably doesn't turn into the player he is today without those failures and mistakes. His game has improved drastically in 2 short years and he can still get better by improving his free throw % to 80+% and adding 2-3 more post moves.
LeBron James = Champion |
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